The Relationship Thread

[allegro]

It takes some work on your part to make this work. Like listening to her talk about her day. Partners don't listen to hours of bullshit about their respective partner's job because they thoroughly enjoy it; they do it because that's what being partners is all about: supporting each other, listening to each other. And, sometimes, it also means pointing out that they're whining. Not a whole lot comes from hours of whining or bitching if someone continues to put up with bullshit at the job; perhaps telling her that she should consider DOING something about it, like perhaps finding another job or changing her attitude about her job would help? There are definitely aspects of this "relationship" thing that require us to, um, learn to tolerate things that can drive us a little nuts. It also means supporting each other, guiding each other into constructive changes, and sometime just accepting each other. G and I listen to each other bitch about our careers all the time. Sometimes we have NO idea what the other is talking about (we have lingo in each of our careers that means zero to anyone outside of our careers). So we listen to the parts we do understand and kind of skim over the parts we don't, and point out the parts where maybe we can help each other.

Re "in love" -- I've been with G for 16 years and I love him very much, but I'm not sure I've ever been "in love" in my entire life. Not like this mythical thing on television and in books. I don't get it. I don't think I'm capable of it. It sounds stupid to me. I'm far too logical. I think real love is deeper and more important than that. When you can still be with someone for nearly 20 years and you still really enjoy each other's company more than the company of anybody else, and you genuinely like to do things together, and you can argue but it's over and it's like it never happened 20 minutes later, then let's compare that to these people who are head-over-heels "in love" and see if they get the same mileage. If they do, great, more power to them. But, we don't all think the same way, and I think it's important for me to be honest, here, and say that I'm not even sure that this kind of "love" is possible for my type of personality and maybe not yours, either.

My mom used to think this is "sad." Now, she is starting to understand that I may be a lot happier in my relationship than she ever was in hers. She thinks with her heart; my heart doesn't think, my mind controls everything.

[Magtig]

I think it's important for me to be honest, here, and say that I'm not even sure that this kind of "love" is possible for my type of personality and maybe not yours, either.

My mom used to think this is "sad." Now, she is starting to understand that I may be a lot happier in my relationship than she ever was in hers. She thinks with her heart; my heart doesn't think, my mind controls everything.
I appreciate your reply & honesty, allegro. I'm running around in circles here; talking helps. I have been head over heels in love several times. But when I reflect upon those relationships, they were always really fucked up and unhappy. Dysfunctional, would be the word. That dopamine high is incredibly powerful, and it will cause you to make horrible decisions (just like any other drug); there's a sickly delirium to that experience. It also feels like nothing else in this world, and I'm pretty sure that's how she feels about me. In a way I feel like I'm short changing her, even though that's not really fair to say.

I do enjoy just being with her, and we're always doing awesome shit together. I don't think we've ever really argued (which is especially weird with me); it's not that we haven't run into problems before we just simply communicate instead of arguing.

[jessamineny]

Maybe what you had before was really New Relationship Energy, or just sexual chemistry, or an addictive high you got from chaos. You could have had it wrong all along -- what you're experiencing now might be what being "in love" actually is.

I hope everything turns out well.

[allegro]

Maybe what you had before was really New Relationship Energy, or just sexual chemistry, or an addictive high you got from chaos. You could have had it wrong all along -- what you're experiencing now might be what being "in love" actually is.
Hmmm, interesting.

[AgentofChaos]

I like that. We should all define what love means to us, and not have it be defined to us. Sure there is the hollywood "example", but it's nothing tangible to actually compare to when you go to measure up. It's based on vague ideas, moments, and imagery, but nothing of real substance whatsoever. If love to you is fucking 10 times a day and making stupid decisions, then that's cool, chances are your version of love will always be fleeting, but some people are honestly happier that way. If your version of love is defined by logic, order, reason, and sensibility, then that's cool too, although chances are you will have a relationship devoid of much passion, but again, some people are happier that way (catch there is, you just have to hope long term that your partner is the same way, which is hard, especially over the long haul, since people are always changing). In the end, only you can know what it takes for yourself to be happy, the hardest part for most people is not so much finding someone (although agreed, its still fucking tough and basically a lottery at best) but rather coming to terms with what kind of love makes you happiest and disregading the kind of love you think you should have. You also have to be so self aware to notice if and when that definition of happiness changes, and its quite likely that it will from 18 to 40, if not multiple times, which I why I generally believe that the majority of the human population are not suited for marriage. But people scare easily, and are prone to comfort, so it ends up making sense when it shouldn't. And even when the stars do align in those rare instances, no one is really immune to being cheated on when things get their most primal. We are merely animals, after all. You can be committed in your heart one million percent to someone, but no person is above a moment of weakness or failure in any facet of life, love or otherwise. That's not an excuse, it's just reality. How many times have you said you wouldn't do something that you ended up doing, or made a mistake, small or large, that you wish you could take back?

For myself, love is loosely comprised of four simple things (in no specific order, each is as important)

1) Attraction
2) Communication
3) Dedication
4) Fun

If I don't feel a physical chemistry, I'm out. If I can't talk about anything and everything with you in a comfortable environment, I'm out. If I can't be 100% dedicated to you and our life together, then I'm out. If we can't laugh, adventure, and relax together, then I'm out.

I went 24 years without coming close to feeling anything like the definition I built for myself, and never said the words to anyone despite many casual relationships. 4 years ago that changed, and I am lucky enough to say I will be marrying that person later this year.

I still feel that spark when she touches me. There is nothing we can't talk about or deal with. We can spend hours upon hours together doing abolutely nothing together and I still enjoy her company. I've never once felt the need to run or get away (and I've always been a lone wolf). Only to get closer. And unless she is happy and well looked after, I'm fucking miserable. She has and always will be my number one priority. I have hobbies, I have career goals, aspirations and dreams sure, but they all come second. They have to. We have bullshit to deal with, bills to pay, our own personal issues, but none of it really truly matters so long as we are together. I firmly believe if you have something that takes priority over your significant other, then you probably shouldn't be with them, at least not seriously.

And I'm not naive enough to think that we will have a perfect life. Who knows what kind of people we will have turned in to in 10 years or where our lives take us. That's life! We make choices. It's how we learn. And I choose her. If there are any consequences down the line for that choice, so be it. At least it was mine. Not my parents or friends, not society's, not hollywood's... mine.

Magtig, using the excuse of being 'broken' is probably your mind's way of trying to take the blame for the fact that this girl will do everything for you, and she still can't make you happy. It's not her fault, and it's not your fault. It just is. If you really care for her, you should let her go. I know you want to try and make it work because that's what feels like the right thing to do, but the right thing to do is look at how this relationship makes you feel, and not at what you hope it can become. There is a difference of putting in work to be committed to each other, and simply waiting for things to change. It seems like your wanting the choice to be made for you. Make your own.

[allegro]

This is my second marriage and my third live-in relationship. For me, "happiness" = "lack of unhappiness."

No drama, no high-maintenance bullshit, no games, no lying, etc. Life's too fucking short. And, yeah, caring about each other and treating each other nice really means a lot. Right now, I'm lying in bed lazing around on a Sunday morning and my husband is in the kitchen feeding our five pets. :-)

[Warped_Savant]

This is my second marriage and my third live-in relationship. For me, "happiness" = "lack of unhappiness."
That reminds me of the main answer I would give people when asked why I proposed to my wife.
"She drives me a lot less nuts than the rest of the world."

[icklekitty]

I appreciate your reply & honesty, allegro. I'm running around in circles here; talking helps. I have been head over heels in love several times. But when I reflect upon those relationships, they were always really fucked up and unhappy. Dysfunctional, would be the word. That dopamine high is incredibly powerful, and it will cause you to make horrible decisions (just like any other drug); there's a sickly delirium to that experience. It also feels like nothing else in this world, and I'm pretty sure that's how she feels about me. In a way I feel like I'm short changing her, even though that's not really fair to say.

I do enjoy just being with her, and we're always doing awesome shit together. I don't think we've ever really argued (which is especially weird with me); it's not that we haven't run into problems before we just simply communicate instead of arguing.

I can empathise. I sort of doubt that I can ever feel that fairytale love, or that I really understand what it would be like or recognise it if it slapped me in the face. But I know when I really care about someone to the point of not wanting to hurt them, thinking about them a lot, and having things in the rest of your life that reminds you of them.

You haven't mentioned what her reaction was to you saying how you feel. Presuming this is about you wanting to requite her feelings as opposed to her being upset, I would say that what you feel towards her is more important. As you say, this isn't a punch-drunk emotion. Your feelings (and they are very good feelings) come from a sober, rational place. I think the way you feel is a more realistic interpretation of reasons to be in a relationship, as opposed to getting carried away with your emotions and behaving like you're in a film - did those head over heels relationships crash as hard as they soared?

And if she's OK with you feeling the way you do, and she still trusts that you will be a good partner, then maybe her being more...emotional? about it is just her way of doing it. And you seem to always be doing the right thing (from what you post in here) by always being clear with her, always making sure she's OK, etc.

[Dra508]

That reminds me of the main answer I would give people when asked why I proposed to my wife.
"She drives me a lot less nuts than the rest of the world."This worked for me for a long long time. I said "I could always work it out with him." I now see this as a cop out to really doing the hard work in a relationship. allergro's comment about listening even if you don't understand what they're talking about, but then be the person that says the hard things like "so what are you going to do about it?" I found myself protecting other people's egos way too much and now realize I can't own other people's happiness. That doesn't help a relationship.

[Magtig]

Magtig, using the excuse of being 'broken' is probably your mind's way of trying to take the blame for the fact that this girl will do everything for you, and she still can't make you happy.
This is an incorrect assumption. Besides, I would never put someone in the position of being responsible (even erroneously) for my happiness.


It seems like your wanting the choice to be made for you. Make your own.
The choice I made was to fight for it, but I can see why you said this and I think I agree with the sentiment. However, like all paradoxes, love is pretty hard to define. I've been around the block enough to understand what a new relationship feels like, and what delirious love feels like, and I know that a lot of it is a chemical reaction. Sometimes it just takes a while for people to fall in love. Proximity can definitely accomplish that if everything else is working (commitment, communication, enjoyment of company, sexual chemistry, etc), which it truly is, in my case.

Last night we went to her friend's birthday party, and had a great time together including the very raunchy sex we had when we got home. It wasn't uncomfortable, and there didn't seem to be a relationship death sentence hanging over us (something I feared). It confirmed for me that I should fight for it, and that I shouldn't run off just because some preconception of mine wasn't met. I think it's more a question of not giving up on something when encountering a speed bump than wanting a choice to be made for me. This has been really emotionally confusing and I may just have to own up to the idea that I might be inventing problems, however real they may seem, for myself.

To address icklekitty's post: her reaction to hearing all this was to try to find a reason to blame herself, but there is no blame. Eventually I got through on that point.


I sort of doubt that I can ever feel that fairytale love, or that I really understand what it would be like or recognise it if it slapped me in the face. But I know when I really care about someone to the point of not wanting to hurt them, thinking about them a lot, and having things in the rest of your life that reminds you of them.
I have this in spades.

[Magtig]

I found myself protecting other people's egos way too much and now realize I can't own other people's happiness. That doesn't help a relationship.
No, it really does not (help a relationship), and neither does avoiding things like pain or talking about an elephant in the room. I take the proactive step of telling people that they need to be able to criticize me honestly and openly if they want to have a relationship with me (incidentally, this also works for creative relationships). There's an aspect of that whole deliriously in love thing that tends to turn people into mutual sycophants, which in turn snuffs out real communication.

[Frozen Beach]

I let her go. Not gonna talk about it anymore.

[icklekitty]

To address icklekitty's post: her reaction to hearing all this was to try to find a reason to blame herself, but there is no blame. Eventually I got through on that point.


I have this in spades.


Then, to paraphrase the Australians, you cunts are going to be allllright.

[Dra508]

30+ year old salesman in a clothes store asked me out to drinks with his friends tonight, which I politely laughed off and refused. This came after him going beyond the usual salesperson "you look great" when you look shit to saying I had a good body, etc etc etc.

I thought it was just flattering, even if a bit strange, but my girlfriend wasn't as amused. Oh well, I think I smoothed it over.

Does it bother you all if someone hits on/asks out your SO? Obviously excluding if your SO accepted the offer because that's a bit of a no brainer.I can see that bothering your SO. Be flattered, but assure her you have zero interest.

My soon to be X took family photos with his new girl. I had incredibly mixed feelings about it since I walked out on him. Then I come home to find he bought 1000 Facebook shares with our money. Dumb ass. I need to get this shit moving fast.

[Minpin]

30+ year old salesman in a clothes store asked me out to drinks with his friends tonight, which I politely laughed off and refused. This came after him going beyond the usual salesperson "you look great" when you look shit to saying I had a good body, etc etc etc.

I thought it was just flattering, even if a bit strange, but my girlfriend wasn't as amused. Oh well, I think I smoothed it over.

Does it bother you all if someone hits on/asks out your SO? Obviously excluding if your SO accepted the offer because that's a bit of a no brainer.
Been in this situation but reversed. Girlfriend thought it was HILARIOUS that a guy was cracking onto me. I just felt uncomfortable...

Maybe your girlfriend wasn't amused that you found it flattering (as you should have) and wanted that 'manly' (meathead) response that its somehow a threat to your raging heterosexuality.

Now an attractive woman hitting on me, WOAH! Completely different beast. A look that said "he's mine, cunt"*

*not icklekittys genial sense, the western suburbs cut-your-throat threatening sense

[allegro]

You can't control other people's actions. I've been "asked out" by drunk dudes at a bar RIGHT IN FRONT OF G and I did NOTHING to encourage this, I assure you.

One time, I was at this horrible dudefest guitar wankerextravaganza at the House of Blues and this really drunk dude kept telling me, "you're so gorgeous" blah blah blah and I was thinking, "dude, I'm one of, like, THREE women in this ENTIRE BUILDING, and the other two women look like fucking wildebeests. Fucking WINGIE MALMSTEIN is on stage, how many CHICKS do you see around here through your BEER GLASSES?!?!?" The weird thing is, he was really nice, and really cute, and about 15 years younger than me, and he was actually paying more attention to me at the time than G, who was busy watching Mr. Stupid Virtuoso, and so this dude asks me for my cell number, and I was, like, no no, um, and I dunno what happened, I wasn't drunk, honest, but I guess I wanted to shut him up, so I did a really dumb thing -- okay, I can't believe I'm admitting this, here -- I gave him my cell number, figuring, you know, he's gonna wake up and FORGET THIS EVER HAPPENED.

No dice. I'm walking through campus (this was before I got my undergrad degree) and my cell phone rings and, um, who the fuck is this? Oh, shit.

I told him, um, sorry, I have a boyfriend, I'm in a live-in relationship, I have ZERO interest in going outside of that relationship, and you were nice but you were really drunk, and um, sorry, really, um, sorry. heh, um, yeah.

hahahahahahahahaaaaaa wtf

I think there is a moral to this story, somewhere, learn from it what you will.

(p.s.: I forgot that he left me a drunk voice mail message on my cell at, like, 4 am, professing his adoration. He sounded nearly passed out at the time, so I didn't take that seriously, either.)

[Minpin]

Perhaps, that's kinda the feeling I'd got. But to be fair I've gone out (for a rather small period of time) with a guy before and when we talked about it she said she didn't have an issue with it, but that adds on another layer to this all I suppose. yeah totally explains it, thought it was weird otherwise. Just the natural response to potential 'competition' (regardless of how you reacted)
I dunno, I just thought it was a funny story to share and now it's got me in a foul mood thinking that I fucked up somehow. you didn't fuck up, but I wouldn't bother bringing it up with her if she wants to let it go. Its a funny story to tell your mates. To turn the foul mood into a positive, shows she cares about you :)
The weird thing is, he was really nice, and really cute, and about 15 years younger than me, and he was actually paying more attention to me at the time than G, who was busy watching Mr. Stupid Virtuoso, and so this dude asks me for my cell number, and I was, like, no no, um, and I dunno what happened, I wasn't drunk, honest, but I guess I wanted to shut him up, so I did a really dumb thing -- okay, I can't believe I'm admitting this, here -- I gave him my cell could the reason have been to illicit a response out of G? I've had women blatantly flirt with guys in front of me just to get some possessive response from me. Tricky part comes in knowing the fine line of not indulging it, but not flat out ignoring it so she's pushed further...

[Dra508]

I think there is a moral to this story, somewhere, learn from it what you will.
Don't give out a real mobile # to some random guy?

Funny story and impressive use of the word wildebeests.

[allegro]

could the reason have been to illicit a response out of G?
Nah. Well, maybe, I dunno, I was also pretty bored. I thought the guy was so drunk, he wouldn't even punch in the numbers right. It ended up being no big deal, but my main point is that I certainly wasn't doing anything to urge it on. It does kinda surprise you when somebody hits on you when you think you're "obviously" with somebody but I think either people don't KNOW that you're actually there "with" somebody or that's totally irrelevant to guys? Dunno.

edit; that, btw, was officially the LAST time I went to a guitar wankfest. G and I try to enjoy each other's interests but I now draw the line at guitar wankfests. At that above-referenced show, I was actually thinking about leaving so I could go lie down in the car, I was so bored I could barely support my own weight. (Oh, I also draw the line at Peter Gabriel era Genesis cover bands. He can have his "guy's night out" shit, and now he's not offended if I don't want to partake in that particular activity.)

[Minpin]

Nah. Well, maybe, I dunno, I was also pretty bored. I thought the guy was so drunk, he wouldn't even punch in the numbers right. It ended up being no big deal, but my main point is that I certainly wasn't doing anything to urge it on. It does kinda surprise you when somebody hits on you when you think you're "obviously" with somebody but I think either people don't KNOW that you're actually there "with" somebody or that's totally irrelevant to guys? Dunno.
Maybe some guys don't give a shit. For me, as a guy that probably weighs no more than 70kg in wet jeans (I honestly don't know how much I weigh beyond 'not much'), I would make sure. Even if she was seemingly alone.

The time I don't bother, will be the time I turn around to some fuming once were warriors looking guy menacing me with "you value your teeth? you like your pretty boy face?"

I value my teeth. I like my pretty boy face. I'll check. ;)

[Fixer808]

Date for tomorrow flaked. Fine, fuck you.

[sentient02970]

Wife who left me 4 months and change ago comes back from a week-long trip in San Francisco and tells me she "missed me"..

FUCK. YOU! verymuch.

[Dra508]

Wife who left me 4 months and change ago comes back from a week-long trip in San Francisco and tells me she "missed me"..

FUCK. YOU! verymuch.I hear that is how it often how it goes. I've been told repeatedly how surprised people are that I haven't gone back or at least jumped into bed with my soon to be x.

[allegro]

His wife sounds like she's having some kind of weird midlife breakdown or something. She appears to be confused by the fact that he's moved on with his life, so she's stirring up shit.

Friends WANT you to go back because THEY don't like change and THEY don't like to be reminded that - POOF - their own relationship could be over, just like that. Any real true friend would want you to do whatever you need to do and would NEVER ask that fucking stupid nosy question.

It's times like these when you find out who your TRUE friends are.

[jessamineny]

I hear that is how it often how it goes. I've been told repeatedly how surprised people are that I haven't gone back or at least jumped into bed with my soon to be x.

I'm surprised you haven't cut off his dick after that FB fiasco. :eek:

[NotoriousTIMP]

props to this guy.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yNdpaSBTzo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Hula]

I always feel a little ambivalent about flashy public marriage proposals. I mean it's a hugely romantic gesture and to have someone do something like that for you (even without it being a proposal) would in itself be incredibly sweet. It just seems like there's a lot of pressure on whoever's being asked to...well, say yes. Of course, if you'd been discussing marriage as a couple for a while and both seemed to be in the same head space (meaning that it was kind of a logical next step) it probably wouldn't bother me quite so much...

I don't know. I'm a romantic, but at the same time I think I'm just a grumpy, cynical asshole :P

[Dra508]

His wife sounds like she's having some kind of weird midlife breakdown or something. She appears to be confused by the fact that he's moved on with his life, so she's stirring up shit.True. Though I've interperted some folks reaction, including my mother, as just this. Awe, she's just having a moment. It'll pass and she'll be back.


Friends WANT you to go back because THEY don't like change and THEY don't like to be reminded that - POOF - their own relationship could be over, just like that. Any real true friend would want you to do whatever you need to do and would NEVER ask that fucking stupid nosy question.Extremely true. I'm keeping the supportive people close and the haters..... I'm giving them up in the settlement. :P

It's times like these when you find out who your TRUE friends are.[/QUOTE]


I'm surprised you haven't cut off his dick after that FB fiasco. :eek:Wait wha? I know I have a crap memory, but are you sure you're talking about me?

[jessamineny]

Wait wha? I know I have a crap memory, but are you sure you're talking about me?

You posted that he bought 1,000 shares of Facebook with your money, without your knowledge. (And the stock hasn't exactly done well.)

[Dra508]

You posted that he bought 1,000 shares of Facebook with your money, without your knowledge. (And the stock hasn't exactly done well.)Yes of course. See, told you I've got shit memory. Actually, I went straight to posting something stupid on Facebook, but yeah you're right. I've resisted all urges to say anything snide about his investment choice. He did by Apple back when it was $25.

[Magtig]

Friends WANT you to go back because THEY don't like change and THEY don't like to be reminded that - POOF - their own relationship could be over, just like that. Any real true friend would want you to do whatever you need to do and would NEVER ask that fucking stupid nosy question.

It's times like these when you find out who your TRUE friends are.
Not me, after reading your post I realized that I'm usually happy when my friends breakup. That realization bothered me for a second until I realized that by the time they do it's a huge relief because they're fucking miserable! So when my friends have told me they're breaking up or they're getting divorced I say in a cautious questioning tone, "Congratulations?"

They almost always say, "Fuck yeah!" and high five me or something. haha

Finding out who your true friends are can be one helluva harsh wake up call. You also see who your true friends are when you make dramatic life improvements such as losing a lot of weight, getting sober, becoming more social and well adjusted, etc. The old saying 'misery loves company' has gained a tremendous amount of gravity to me. I avoid those people like the plague at this stage, even if I like them on a personal level (which I often do).

You don't have to be perfect, or even close to it, to be my friend, but you do have to be moving forward with your life in one way or another.

[allegro]

^^ fuck yes! Like x 300!!

[dominik]

So I've been dating this guy for 1-2 months now which is great. He really seems to like me and it's great when he's here and we are hanging out together, and he's really lovely. But I think I've now come to the conclusion that I'm not in love with him or whatever you want to call that (one reason for that might be the fact that he's 5 years younger than me). It's great when we hang out, and that's that. He's coming in an hour and all I think is "I'd rather be on my own tonight because I don't feel like it". And I think that's weird and a kind of shitty behaviour from me, because he seems to really look forward to it. I mean, if I really liked him I wouldn't think that, right?

I don't know how to proceed now.

[sentient02970]

I consider "love" and "like" to be very different realms of thought and feeling. Sure, dating doesn't mean you have to feel love for someone but "like" becomes important because you should like hanging out with someone, enjoying company and going forward with further dates and time. There must be a bit you "like" about him if you're feeling guilty about your feelings here but don't ever think this must mean love for it to work for you and make you happy.
I would say just keep finding enjoyment in what you like about him. When or if that runs out, move on delicately.

[dominik]

I consider "love" and "like" to be very different realms of thought and feeling. Sure, dating doesn't mean you have to feel love for someone but "like" becomes important because you should like hanging out with someone, enjoying company and going forward with further dates and time. There must be a bit you "like" about him if you're feeling guilty about your feelings here but don't ever think this must mean love for it to work for you and make you happy.
I would say just keep finding enjoyment in what you like about him. When or if that runs out, move on delicately.

That's possibly the best answer I can get for my question. Thanks :)

Plus, it was great tonight and I see no reason to quit that.

[allegro]

So I've been dating this guy for 1-2 months now which is great. He really seems to like me and it's great when he's here and we are hanging out together, and he's really lovely. But I think I've now come to the conclusion that I'm not in love with him or whatever you want to call that (one reason for that might be the fact that he's 5 years younger than me). It's great when we hang out, and that's that. He's coming in an hour and all I think is "I'd rather be on my own tonight because I don't feel like it". And I think that's weird and a kind of shitty behaviour from me, because he seems to really look forward to it. I mean, if I really liked him I wouldn't think that, right?

I don't know how to proceed now.
You don't want to see him? Yet you say you enjoy his company?

Are you sure you're not mistaking "love" for "lust?"

If you are, it's not all that uncommon. I believe the majority of people who swear they're in love are experiencing chemical lust.

But chemical lust often isn't enough. Trust those of us who can attest to this: the sex is GREAT but nobody's home beyond that.

Companionship, general compatability, enjoying each other's company is pretty important.

I used to think we had some kind of innate preference for a certain "type" and that sexual chemistry was the main clue.

I think I was wrong on both points.

Granted, when you're young, it's okay to make dumb decisions and figure all this out on your own.

It's how you learn.

No guts, no glory. No pain, no gain.

[lady weetly]

I've mostly have gotten over the awful break up late last year with my ex. Right now I'm really crazy about this one girl who I've known for almost a year and I just really love being with her. We've had long conversations about how we're both like men and women, but she said before that she could never see herself in a committed relationship because of the "drama". She's exactly five years older than me, but we've grown close and we get along like we've known each other for a long time. Earlier this year we made out, but as 'friends' and it will probably happen again. I'm terrified that if I tell her that I like her that it will ruin our friendship, because that would kill me since we've gotten so close. So I'll probably just keep my dumbass mouth shut, even though I wish I could tell her before she goes to London in a few weeks on vacation. Fuck feelings and emotions getting in the way.

[Madmya]

Just wait for another one of these 'make out as friends' moments then go for a boob grab and hope for the best. Blame it on drunkedness if she doesn't react well. Then hope for it to turn into sex. Then you'll inevitably have sex again. Then she's staying over the entire weekend. Next thing you know you're in a relationship.

Bam.

Problem solvered.

[REPLICA]

So... This is the first time I'm posting in the relationship thread on new ETS. I asked one of my best friends out on a date. She said that we were better off as friends and she didn't want to ruin our friendship by being my girlfriend. I told her that I cared a lot about her, she has been through a lot of bad relationships and so have I. We compliment each other very well, in my opinion, and I thought she liked me more than she actually did - She considers me a close friend but has no romantic feelings for me - kind of like a brother figure, in the way that we tell each other things that we would not normally tell other people.

Well long story short, for a second there I thought she could have been the girl I was looking for... She told me she was upset because I felt a romantic way for her and she didn't feel the same toward me. Now I feel like I have ruined our whole friendship because she won't talk to me... I don't know what to do.

EDIT: if this doesn't make sense, I'm sorry, I'm a little drunk and I should have posted in The Drunk Thread.

[Broadbent]

So... This is the first time I'm posting in the relationship thread on new ETS. I asked one of my best friends out on a date. She said that we were better off as friends and she didn't want to ruin our friendship by being my girlfriend. I told her that I cared a lot about her, she has been through a lot of bad relationships and so have I. We compliment each other very well, in my opinion, and I thought she liked me more than she actually did - She considers me a close friend but has no romantic feelings for me - kind of like a brother figure, in the way that we tell each other things that we would not normally tell other people.

Well long story short, for a second there I thought she could have been the girl I was looking for... She told me she was upset because I felt a romantic way for her and she didn't feel the same toward me. Now I feel like I have ruined our whole friendship because she won't talk to me... I don't know what to do.

EDIT: if this doesn't make sense, I'm sorry, I'm a little drunk and I should have posted in The Drunk Thread.


Just don't get weird about it and thing will go back to normal in a few weeks.

[REPLICA]

Just don't get weird about it and thing will go back to normal in a few weeks.

Okay, thanks Broadbent.

[milkman]

After being secretly in love with each other for a healthy portion of the last year (small world), my girlfriend and I finally decided to actually jump into what anyone who's known us within that time has been waiting for.

In the background, that "best friend is pissed off for not having said anything while I was still on the shelf" issue is around. Always a pleasure.

[somewhat_damaged]

So... This is the first time I'm posting in the relationship thread on new ETS. I asked one of my best friends out on a date. She said that we were better off as friends and she didn't want to ruin our friendship by being my girlfriend. I told her that I cared a lot about her, she has been through a lot of bad relationships and so have I. We compliment each other very well, in my opinion, and I thought she liked me more than she actually did - She considers me a close friend but has no romantic feelings for me - kind of like a brother figure, in the way that we tell each other things that we would not normally tell other people.

Well long story short, for a second there I thought she could have been the girl I was looking for... She told me she was upset because I felt a romantic way for her and she didn't feel the same toward me. Now I feel like I have ruined our whole friendship because she won't talk to me... I don't know what to do.

EDIT: if this doesn't make sense, I'm sorry, I'm a little drunk and I should have posted in The Drunk Thread.

I'm pretty much in this exact situation, but I haven't decided whether to ask her out yet.
Part of me thinks it will end up fucking everything up with her friendship-wise, but the other part of me thinks that there's a good chance she'll actually say yes.
I'll probably end up asking her after she finishes her uni exams and de-stresses a bit in a few weeks. You only live once, so if it's bad news then I'd rather get it sorted quickly than have it floating around in my head for too much longer...

[REPLICA]

I hope everything works out for you somewhat_damaged. I remember people saying it's bad for best friends to be together but one of my ex-girlfriends got married to her best friend six months after we broke up.

I sent my friend a text that I was sorry that I asked her out. I am waiting for a reply...

EDIT: so... we are not friends anymore... I told her that I thought she was my "one." She said my girl/woman would be waiting for me and I told her that I could no longer be her friend while i was looking for my "one." I know it's selfish but I am just so tired of having women treat me like crap.

[Magtig]

I hope everything works out for you somewhat_damaged. I remember people saying it's bad for best friends to be together but one of my ex-girlfriends got married to her best friend six months after we broke up.

I sent my friend a text that I was sorry that I asked her out. I am waiting for a reply...

EDIT: so... we are not friends anymore... I told her that I thought she was my "one." She said my girl/woman would be waiting for me and I told her that I could no longer be her friend while i was looking for my "one." I know it's selfish but I am just so tired of having women treat me like crap.
I'm sorry to hear that, but I think your whole approach needs reworking. First off, the idea of searching for the "one" is a great way to put yourself in a situation from which you can only derive disappointment and heartbreak, as opposed to learning to enjoy the journey and having experiences with fantastic people that you've chosen to surround yourself with. Remember that most people who have found a long term partner have had many, many experiences with other people that didn't last forever. The lessons and experiences gained from those "failures" -which are really assets when processed correctly- are often what enables a person to make a long term relationship work.

I have no idea if this is true in your case or not, but I've seen a lot of guys be best friends with women when they really want to be with them. They often bend over backwards for them over and over, agree with most of what they say (which means they aren't being authentic), neglect to flirt with them, and then get angry when they get shot down when the whole situation finally comes to a head. They often feel as if their friend/secret obsession owes them at that point, because they've 'done so much for her.'

Try to think about it from the female perspective: here's a guy that they think is a great and loyal friend, who suddenly says, "I think you're the ONE for me, we should be together for ever, and ever, and EVAR!" Not only is it a ton of pressure, but if you haven't laid the ground work with flirting, asking her out on dates, and especially not letting her treat you like a doormat -which shows self worth, and self confidence- it's completely out of left field. Add to that the almost always accompanying sense of entitlement, and you've got a classic, toxic situation.

The main thing you need to work on then is yourself. The whole entire landscape of dating and relationships changes completely when you've built up skills with communication, flirting, and learning to display your best qualities without being arrogant (self confidence). You'll know you've arrived at this place when you find that you have your choice of partners, especially if they're good choices. No one likes a suck-up, no one likes desperation, and almost everyone likes a person who has some degree of self confidence. You can build these qualities in a nuts and bolts fashion by learning about the psychology of women, dating, and pick-up skills, but only through repetition and practice. You don't have to be perfect, but you do have to learn to be yourself without being needy.

The whole psychology of finding the "one" is basically the prince or princess charming syndrome. It's finding a person that you like, and putting them on a pedestal where they have to satisfy all of your needs. Life doesn't work that way. And why would you want to do that to your special someone anyway? It's unfair. It's also unfair to others to be so fatalistic about every relationship, instead of taking a more organic approach. You don't have to be with someone for a lifetime to learn something from them, and vice versa. Hell, it could be a one night stand where the people involved simply treat each other in a very sweet way, even if it does involve wild monkey fucking. So what? Learning how to have that kind of interaction can definitely benefit you down the road when you do find something a little more long term.

In short, ease up on yourself AND those you choose to spend time with, enjoy the ride, and learn things in the process.

[allegro]

^^^^ amen to that!!

[botley]

It's sometimes really hard for me to resist pressure (and that pressure is EVERYWHERE) to conform to this silly ideal; I know all the things you say are true on an intellectual level but emotions are fucking rough to figure out and I'm still clueless about them sometimes. There are gals I wanna fuck, gals I want to live with, gals I want to be friends with, and weird Venn diagrams of all those in between. Only a few I have ever encoutered fit in all three categories for an extended period and I only pulled all three off with one. Guess I have a lot more learning to do.

[Magtig]

It's sometimes really hard for me to resist pressure (and that pressure is EVERYWHERE) to conform to this silly ideal; I know all the things you say are true on an intellectual level but emotions are fucking rough to figure out and I'm still clueless about them sometimes. There are gals I wanna fuck, gals I want to live with, gals I want to be friends with, and weird Venn diagrams of all those in between. Only a few I have ever encoutered fit in all three categories for an extended period and I only pulled all three off with one. Guess I have a lot more learning to do.
All of this sounds totally normal to me, you're probably doing just fine. I undoubtedly have a lot more learning to do (as you can tell by my "crisis" on the previous page haha).

[REPLICA]

Well, we smoothed things over and are friends again. I was acting like an ass but everything got worked out. I realize now that I need to be more open to meeting new people and having the guts to not be so shy around women. Magtig thanks for that post earlier, I really needed it. I think I've always had that view of trying to find the "one" rather than enjoying all my relationships. Hopefully eveything will be better (on my part) when I meet a woman who I take a liking too.

[Archive_Reports]

As I don't normally post anything but random stuff on this site and I haven't talked to 99% of my friends about this, I'm not sure why I'm posting this here. My wife and I decided that, after almost six years, we're getting a divorce. We've been separated for about eight months. The shittiest part about everything is that there's no major problem to be had...we just grew apart in the romantic sense, I guess. I've expected this for a while but knowing that I'll never come home and see her car in the driveway or wake up next to her again is pretty devastating. Neither one of us wants to be out of the other's life because, other than the strain caused by the immense and obvious stress this has caused for both of us, we're still best friends. Has anyone ever dealt with something like this before?

It would be so much easier if there was a bigger problem and someone had done something wrong.

[allegro]

I don't mean to overstep my bounds, here, but I don't think you guys have sufficient reasons to give up. I sincerely encourage you to seek counseling. You seem to be seeking a perfection that doesn't exist. Even long long relationships get to this point (INCLUDING MINE) and, if you're strong, you'll come through it on the other side and you'll be stronger than ever. Romance is, ultimately, in the "life partner" sense, SO fucking relatively unimportant, but we don't learn that until our parents die and we help each other get through that, and we age and we help each other get through that, and we get sick and we help each other get through that, and we still love each other and are there for each other as "life partners."

And THAT is when you learn the true definition of "love" and "romance."

[aggroculture]

Wasn't what you just said the main lesson of Franzen's Freedom? That's what I took away from the book.

[allegro]

Wasn't what you just said the main lesson of Franzen's Freedom? That's what I took away from the book.
Yes.

Thank you.

I hadn't realized that but, yes. And I love you. In the Richard Katz sense, I mean, you know.

[Dra508]

I don't mean to overstep my bounds, here, but I don't think you guys have sufficient reasons to give up. I sincerely encourage you to seek counseling. You seem to be seeking a perfection that doesn't exist. Even long long relationships get to this point (INCLUDING MINE) and, if you're strong, you'll come through it on the other side and you'll be stronger than ever. Romance is, ultimately, in the "life partner" sense, SO fucking relatively unimportant, but we don't learn that until our parents die and we help each other get through that, and we age and we help each other get through that, and we get sick and we help each other get through that, and we still love each other and are there for each other as "life partners."

And THAT is when you learn the true definition of "love" and "romance."Interesting. Archive_Reports doesn't say what it is that made them think that stepping away from the relationship was the only option. "Just growing apart" could be that they don't get that endorphin high every time they see each other. That's a great thing to have, but it as allegro says, being in a relationship take a bit of work (http://beforliving.com/why-being-in-love-is-so-much-work) and some times the transition to that is bumpy.

As for myself, getting ready to go into mediation. Spouse initially thought my frequent flier miles were a part of the marital property. He backed off from that which to me is a tell that he's got something he doesn't want to share. Divorce brings out a lot of distrust you didn't even think you were capable of with this particular person. I just want to get out and move on. Funny, my friends and family seem more aggressive with me in sharing their advice when it comes to getting 'my share'.

[sentient02970]

As for myself, getting ready to go into mediation. Spouse initially thought my frequent flier miles were a part of the marital property. He backed off from that which to me is a tell that he's got something he doesn't want to share. Divorce brings out a lot of distrust you didn't even think you were capable of with this particular person. I just want to get out and move on. Funny, my friends and family seem more aggressive with me in sharing their advice when it comes to getting 'my share'.
I'm sorry you're dealing with the whole distrust factor now Dra.

I just found out I do not get to keep the antique bookcase I thought we bought together. She actually brought it to the household as a hand me down. So, I don't get to keep it. Oh well.

[playwithfire]

Spouse initially thought my frequent flier miles were a part of the marital property.

I'm sorry, but that's just really fucking stupid.

[jessamineny]

Spouse initially thought my frequent flier miles were a part of the marital property.

I'm sorry, but that's just really fucking stupid.

Well, technically they are part of the marital property... they're an asset. Airlines won't transfer them, but they can be cashed in and a ticket transferred to the other spouse, or they can be assigned a dollar value, and the spouse that holds the miles has to pay the other (or trade something else of value).

[playwithfire]

I mean, I do understand why they could be legally fought for and all. But, I think that's incredibly selfish and petty.

[Dra508]

I mean, I do understand why they could be legally fought for and all. But, I think that's incredibly selfish and petty.Yeah well, I'm going to leave him with the Apple stock at the cash value cause the capital gain on that shitz is going to be huuuuuuugee.. He's so emotional attached to the fact that he picked that stock back when it was $25. I should take the stupid facebook ones he bought and sell them. Then I get the loss and the tax relief. Bwaah bwaaa bwaaa.

[allegro]

I mean, I do understand why they could be legally fought for and all. But, I think that's incredibly selfish and petty.
Dude, this is the business of DIVORCE. The whole thing is filled with selfish and petty. If either party isn't feeling selfish and/or petty, the lawyers will do it for them.

[playwithfire]

Yes, I know it's divorce. I don't think everyone in divorces automatically decide to screw the other person over. And even then, there are different levels of fucktarded.

[allegro]

Yes, I know it's divorce. I don't think everyone in divorces automatically decide to screw the other person over. And even then, there are different levels of fucktarded.

My point is that they're using divorce lawyers who are not only paid to make sure their clients get everything to which they are, in accordance with laws, entitled, but who are also constantly trying to cover their asses from malpractice complaints from their own crazy clients. Things like pensions, 401Ks, frequent flyer miles, are all marital assets and, in divorce court, are no different than any other marital assets. It's not considered "screwing the other person over" to lawyers; it's considered "equitably dividing the marital assets."

The spiteful stuff comes from hurt feelings. And the people who feel guilty give it all away. Neither one is healthy.

[Archive_Reports]

I wouldn't have posted if I didn't expect someone to "overstep bounds." Honestly, she doesn't feel the same way about me as I do about her. She's unhappy and yes, she may have unrealistic expectations of what a relationship should be nine years in. The pragmatic part of me says that if I don't make her happy then it's for the best. The rest of me hates everything about everything right now and is terrified of letting go.

[Dra508]

My point is that they're using divorce lawyers who are not only paid to make sure their clients get everything to which they are, in accordance with laws, entitled, but who are also constantly trying to cover their asses from malpractice complaints from their own crazy clients. Things like pensions, 401Ks, frequent flyer miles, are all marital assets and, in divorce court, are no different than any other marital assets. It's not considered "screwing the other person over" to lawyers; it's considered "equitably dividing the marital assets."

The spiteful stuff comes from hurt feelings. And the people who feel guilty give it all away. Neither one is healthy.Sistah allegro speaks the truth. Lack of trust and guilt fuck the whole process up. I thought we were going to have a collaborative divorce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_law), but I think we are going to try mediation (http://www.mediate.com/articles/jamesb1.cfm) and one of us is going to get stuck on something we don't want to share. It's not like we have a lot to split, but it's enough and uneven at the moment: he's got the assets and I have the income.

Enough about me.

[allegro]

Mediation is better than a Trial. Definitely. Cheaper, too.

[wikkid]

I met a girl.

Sorry I have been working alot and havent been on the board lately. One year after my divorce is final, I fucked around, played the field, did things I did when I was in college, and then it hit me! I was a reinvented person and I know now what is most likely gonna make me ultimately happy.

I know that the whole time I was struggling to really get to know how to be a single Dad and really take care of a seven year old boy, basically on my own. The times I wasn't around my boy I was out and spending and meeting randoms and partying like a 21 year old. Then the reality hit me after the 4th random couldn't get the fact that I couldn't really hang out at all during the week. They all got bitchy. None of them understood. I have my son and he means more to me than anything in the world.

Then I met her. She is really pretty, she has a daughter that is going into 4th grade (my sons going into 2nd), and she has all of her shit together in every way. Career, great Mom to her daughter, chill, no drama, pretty much every kind of perfect. It's what I realized was what a lady really has to offer me. After years of abuse, this is the nicest possible thing that could happen to me.

I miss ya'll ETS, I will be checking in. Hi allegro, Hi Dra!! Love you both!

[allegro]

Love you, too, miss you! Glad life is finally working out for you!

[Dra508]

Love you, too, miss you! Glad life is finally working out for you!ditto ditto ditto

[botley]

I'm actually really grateful for what's been happening to me since my big breakup last year (see: gut-spilling on page one of this thread). There was a long sad dry spell that lasted over a year, and now I'm healing & getting back to being okay with a flexible, casual approach to sexual encounters, instead of carrying all that baggage around with me all the time.

[REPLICA]

So, I haven't heard from my friend (refer to the previous page) in about four weeks now... I thought we had smoothed things over but I text her about once or twice every week but I don't hear anything back. Each time I tell her that I hope she's doing well and that I hope to hear from her soon. Hopefully I'll hear from her when we get back to school this semester, she was an awesome friend.

EDIT: I usually text her during the end of the week since I don't want to interfere with her summer classes.

EDIT 2: I think I'll try to talk to her when we get back to school in August. She might just be busy with things.

[the duder]

Been hooking up with a friend I've known for about 5 years now. Super awesome girl, and as of now it's just a "summer fling" sorta thing, but I'm thinking more may come.

[the duder]

So, kind of in need of some advice/need to get some stuff off of my chest. An update to the post above; I'm pretty much now head over heels for this girl. Dropped the "I'm falling in love with you" bomb a few nights ago, and she said the same. Things are fucking awesome - hanging with her frequently, met her family, have incredible sex, all our friends are supportive of the entire thing, etc. We've talked about how the winter will go, and that's kind of the hang-up. Basically, she's heading back to Orlando to finish her masters at UCF in environmental engineering and I'm heading back north to Buffalo to finish my masters in ed. Basically, we're both leaning towards trying to make things work through the school year, but distance (esp. that much distance) is difficult. I know I'd definitely be down with making it work, and again, she's down to try too. What are some of your experiences with distance and relationships? Any success? I'm thinking it's a case by case basis, but would definitely appreciate any insight/advice/etc.

[Dra508]

So, kind of in need of some advice/need to get some stuff off of my chest. An update to the post above; I'm pretty much now head over heels for this girl. Dropped the "I'm falling in love with you" bomb a few nights ago, and she said the same. Things are fucking awesome - hanging with her frequently, met her family, have incredible sex, all our friends are supportive of the entire thing, etc. We've talked about how the winter will go, and that's kind of the hang-up. Basically, she's heading back to Orlando to finish her masters at UCF in environmental engineering and I'm heading back north to Buffalo to finish my masters in ed. Basically, we're both leaning towards trying to make things work through the school year, but distance (esp. that much distance) is difficult. I know I'd definitely be down with making it work, and again, she's down to try too. What are some of your experiences with distance and relationships? Any success? I'm thinking it's a case by case basis, but would definitely appreciate any insight/advice/etc.I'm currently in a long distance relationship and am making it work because we talk every day, and see each other about every three weeks. The later is what I think makes it work and might be a struggle for you with funds and school. It also goes to trust - you have to verbally share a lot of your life "back home" so that the other feels engaged and not worry that you're out picking up girls. I feel like I have no control over that so in my brain, I let it go. He is more obsessive (he admits this) and has gotten spun up when I said I'd call at a certain time, called later and then just said "oh yeah, I was still out with X having dinner." Trust. If either of you are off the chain jealous - never going to work.

BTW, all the lovey dovey, great sex endorphins perpetuate a lot longer in a long distance relationship because you haven't moved to the day to day put-in-the-hard-work domestic relationship - I know this for me. So that's a plus. The other thing that I think makes it work is if you have a plan in the end. You will move there, you will both me to X. A plan.

[Kid Charlemagne]

I'm currently in a long distance relationship and am making it work because we talk every day, and see each other about every three weeks. The later is what I think makes it work and might be a struggle for you with funds and school. It also goes to trust - you have to verbally share a lot of your life "back home" so that the other feels engaged and not worry that you're out picking up girls. I feel like I have no control over that so in my brain, I let it go. He is more obsessive (he admits this) and has gotten spun up when I said I'd call at a certain time, called later and then just said "oh yeah, I was still out with X having dinner." Trust. If either of you are off the chain jealous - never going to work.

He's jealous and afraid of me, isn't he?

[sentient02970]

Yes friends and acquaintances I speak to everyday: I appreciate you know I am recently single, but no I am NOT interested in registering on a dating website service. Thanks anyway.

[Dra508]

He's jealous and afraid of me, isn't he?Actually..... ;)

[october_midnight]

brb. getting married.

[NotoriousTIMP]

brb. getting married.

Congrats!!!

[R-Dot-Yung]

Yes.

Thank you.

I hadn't realized that but, yes. And I love you. In the Richard Katz sense, I mean, you know.

I haven't read that book yet (would like to now). But what Allegro posted is a whole lot of Truth Bomb, resonated hard with me.

[Conan The Barbarian]

Packing up and getting ready to move out this friday. I thought I was over her, but with every box filled, it gets harder and harder not to cry. I didnt think I wasnt ready for this.

[Stereo75]

Go find yourself a shit load of songs like these, load them up & go for a long walk with them. You have to get out of that house, by yourself for a while. Go grab a few bottles of beer for your pockets and find a quiet place like a park. Sit, listen, drink and cry. Best to do this at night as public drinking is usually frowned upon and crying alone in public in broad daylight is just weird. I did this 11 years ago when a serious relationship I was in ended. 6 months later I met someone new & we haven't looked back. Don't give up. We all need to be loved & you WILL find yours.

Get out the tissues...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLsCZo4xLdY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i28UEoLXVFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScSrPFyEWgQ

[the duder]

I'm currently in a long distance relationship and am making it work because we talk every day, and see each other about every three weeks. The later is what I think makes it work and might be a struggle for you with funds and school. It also goes to trust - you have to verbally share a lot of your life "back home" so that the other feels engaged and not worry that you're out picking up girls. I feel like I have no control over that so in my brain, I let it go. He is more obsessive (he admits this) and has gotten spun up when I said I'd call at a certain time, called later and then just said "oh yeah, I was still out with X having dinner." Trust. If either of you are off the chain jealous - never going to work.

BTW, all the lovey dovey, great sex endorphins perpetuate a lot longer in a long distance relationship because you haven't moved to the day to day put-in-the-hard-work domestic relationship - I know this for me. So that's a plus. The other thing that I think makes it work is if you have a plan in the end. You will move there, you will both me to X. A plan.aqqweqaa


Dra - thanks for the advice/insights. Definitely "in a relationship" and things are great. She's back in FL, and I'm heading north tomorrow. Planning on her coming up to visit in December, and me to head south in April/spring break, at the least.. Plans make for little flagposts to celebrate. I know there are gonna be rough patches, but i feel she's worth a lil abrasion.

[Dra508]

I guess it's worse not fully understand why your marriage failed then knowing, hearing it - from me. So, I have to got to explain this to my ex before he can mediate a divorce. Clearly, a conversation that needs to be guided by a therapist since he's already tried to negotiate using the "this was your decision - so you should pay more than 1/2 - that's your punishment" technique.

Those stages of grief.... I don't think he's gotten past rage yet. :(

[sentient02970]

I've learned you can't really apply the template of other people's relationships to your own. Just because you see others falling into a spiral of splitting up doesn't mean it automatically applies to your partnerships. Try not to stay focused on the doom and gloom but do look for ways to keep yours happy and active despite the distance. Good couples find a way to work around this stuff. Whatever makes you a good couple in the first place will try to keep you stuck together. The trick is finding more and more things that do that as well. Best to you.

[Leman Russ]

I've been single for about 6 years now. It started off as just a general distrust and contempt for anything with a vagina (thanks, cheating wife), but as the time has gone on, I have never once missed being with someone. A few times a year, for about 10 minutes, I have a feeling of "it'd be nice to have someone" and then I snap out of it.

I know no one else who feels like this. In fact, most people I know are out looking for the next one before their last is in the rearview mirror.

[dominik]

Hey guys! :)

I moved to Lisbon for an exchange semester and I have to say it's so awesome here.

But I have a bit of a problem with a guy back in Vienna, I really miss him sometimes. We have been dating since End of April, and it wasn't a serious relationship yet. Before I moved here we talked about it and I said that I don't want a relationship while I'm here, he understood it and said I can also have something with other guys, and that we keep contact and start seeing each other again when I'm back for Christmas. But now in this one month we just chatted once or twice on facebook and generally he doesn't seem to miss me. Which really pisses me off, how can I go back with someone who doesn't care when he doesn't see me for 4 months?

[Magtig]

My best friend and his girlfriend just broke up, and they were that relationship that you know of where they've been going for ages compared to everyone else and they've weathered all kinds of shit but still seemed to be the perfect couple. They did long distance and spent around a year apart while still skyping and trying to stay in touch. But from the sounds of it when they finally started being able to see each other in person on a regular basis it just wasn't the same as it was before, and that's what ended up causing the breakup. Nobody seems to have "won" in the breakup, both of them are just left worse off at the moment. I just hate seeing my best friend all uncaring and jaded about life.

It's just a bit weird because everyone held them up as an example of how some couples can handle long term relationships and still be going awesomely, but actually it wasn't. It certainly weighs on my mind a bit considering that in less than a year my girlfriend is going to go travel for 6 months and then shortly after that move away to go to Uni, and I'm going to go travel for a month in a few months too. Neither of us think a long term relationship would be a good idea, but it sucks knowing that there's going to be an end point in the near future. I just try not to think about it too much.

Sentient is right that you really can't apply other relationships to your own. It's a fallacy to think that because so and so "failed" I have no chance, but I would take issue with the failed part. We treat relationships like a career, and we get so wrapped up in this idea of success or failure. If it's a failure it's bad, and all the good things we experienced with a person either go away completely, or become resentful reminders of the past. The whole system seems geared for maximum emotional damage to everyone involved when a relationship doesn't last forever.

I don't pretend to have an answer to this, other than to suggest that we might want to start shifting out thinking about relationships from success/failure to cyclical growth. It's not natural for things to last forever, and that applies to relationships too. I'm tired of demonizing people I once cared deeply about at the end of an association, even if I no longer have those intense feelings anymore, and even if I'm pissed off at them.

I know this is a bit disjointed, but I thought it might be constructive to discuss better approaches to old relationships receding and new ones beginning.

[the duder]

I've been single for about 6 years now. It started off as just a general distrust and contempt for anything with a vagina (thanks, cheating wife), but as the time has gone on, I have never once missed being with someone. A few times a year, for about 10 minutes, I have a feeling of "it'd be nice to have someone" and then I snap out of it.

I know no one else who feels like this. In fact, most people I know are out looking for the next one before their last is in the rearview mirror.

I was there. I was with a girl for 3 years in undergrad, and things were going great. Until I realized that our paths didn't align. She finished college and was looking for a job. I had a semester left of school and wanted to move abroad and teach. I decided to take some time for ME, because in hind sight, she ran my life. It got so crazy that we would spend half of Christmas break with her family in Connecticut, leave at 3:00 am Christmas morning to be to Western PA by 10:00 am for my family's Christmas celebrations. I didn't realize how much of a command or say she had in my life until I broke up with her. I was single for a year, then I spent two years teaching abroad, fully alone in my own flat in Sweden travelling, meeting people and teaching. I definitely had spurts when, say doing dishes after cooking for one that I would think "man, it would be awesome to have someone". Part of that was because I hated doing dishes. I'd snap out of it when I was done, and all was cool. I had convinced myself that, after 3 years of being single that maybe I didn't need anyone. Sure, I'd have flings here and there, or "date" (i.e. hook up more than once) girls once in a while, but nothing substantial.

After moving back state-side, and about 4 years out of a relationship, I tried dating a girl I met through a mutual friend. After a couple of months, we found it didn't work. Part of it was because I still wasn't ready, part of it was because she had SUCH similar characteristics to my ex that I couldn't handle it. We decided that it was best to just let it die and I moved into year 5 of being single. I figure this was best, because I had been alone for quite some time and adding the stress of appeasing someone else was just too much. It didn't compute. I had enough on my plate to deal with and didn't want to have to help anyone else clear theirs. I spent all of last year without a girlfriend, let alone even a random hook-up - thanks, grad school reading workload!

With that being said, I've been there. I've let enough time pass from my last ex(es) that the rearview mirror isn't even in the same vehicle. I can say, however, that after looking at myself in the rearview mirror I think I was afraid of losing something that I had invested in emotionally. During my single time in Sweden, my older sister passed away at age 30. I was 27 at the time. A lot of my inability to cope with the idea of a relationship; and the ups and downs and any/all associated aspects, stems from not wanting to experience loss of any type. After talking with those closest to me, including other members on this board, I've since come to grips with this. I've met an amazing girl and feel very content with having someone there - even if she's in Florida and I'm in New York. It is refreshing and scary and exhilerating all at the same time, and I'm glad I came to a point where I could "open up" again and be vunerable and "in love".

[Space Suicide]

Just got out of a 3 year relationship in June-July. It was amazing and great while it lasted but at the end we both had irreconcilable differences which lead to the mutual absolution. We're still great friends.

I had no intention of finding or jumping to anyone this shortly after but I find myself really in strong talks with another girl and I'm entirely smitten. I hope good things come about.

[slave2thewage]

Spending next weekend with the guy I met at the Gaga show :)

[dominik]

Everyone that is in a serious long-distance relationship has my fullest respect.

[slave2thewage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFQ2YrL_OuU

Oh yes.

[Fixer808]

A thing I thought may be turning into a probably isn't a thing. :/ Sadness.

[the duder]

I had an amazing time with my girlfriend this weekend...spent Friday at the Botanical Gardens in Buffalo, then dinner and a haunted house. Saturday we took a fantastic little roadtrip down to home and she finally met my parents, which went super well! Sunday we hung out, watched the first 1/2 of the Steelers game with my folks, and came back up to WNY so she could fly back down to FL. A whirlwind of a weekend, but an INCREDIBLE weekend, and didn't want it to end. It was like the past 2 months apart never happened and we fell right back into where we were at this summer. So. In. Love.
[/cheese]

[Piko]

So I met this girl yesterday (bus stop, of all places!). Seemed like we really hit it off. Talked the entire way, and even got off at the same stop. I made some small talk about going to starbucks (she works at the mall, and I work in a restaurant next to it, and so on). Well, on the bus ride, she had mentioned where she had worked, but I couldn't hear her (my hearing is going to hell), so after the second time of not being able to understand her, I eventually just nodded... So, I mentioned starbucks and she just so happened to go as well, something i've never seen her do (seen her a few times before, but never spoken to her until yesterday). We go to starbucks, she got her stuff first and actually waited for me to get my stuff before leaving (good sign?). Since I worked closer to starbucks than she did, I ended up deciding to walk with her and talk a little more (not a far walk at all), then we parted ways. She doesn't ride the bus often, but it would suck if I missed some opportunity with this girl because of my shitty hearing. Went to gamestop earlier, in the mall, so I was curious to see which store it was. Unsuccessful. I don't want to come off like a creeper though. I know for sure, though, that she works in retail as a sales associate. But without a name, i'm kinda fucked. Meh!

[NotoriousTIMP]

Cell phones maybe?

[Piko]

Doubt it. It's a clothes store, I think.

[RocketScience]

Date set for friday. She's into HTDA, modwheelmood, grizzly bear and lots of other cool shit. She likes to draw mushroom houses... I fucking draw mushroom houses. She's into space so I can geek away like fuck and she wouldn't mind.

Life's good. I'll keep y'all posted :-)

[Piko]

Date set for friday. She's into HTDA, modwheelmood, grizzly bear and lots of other cool shit. She likes to draw mushroom houses... I fucking draw mushroom houses. She's into space so I can geek away like fuck and she wouldn't mind.

Life's good. I'll keep y'all posted :-)

Show her some of that Big Black Delta and you're all set. Couldn't resist, heh.

[Christo]

...Mushroom houses? Oh god.

[slave2thewage]

Mushroom houses? As in Super Mario Brothers?

Oh, pet.

[jessamineny]

...Mushroom houses? Oh god.


Mushroom houses? As in Super Mario Brothers?

Oh, pet.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/142-Park-Rd-Pittsford-NY-14534/31022966_zpid/

[RocketScience]

I admit, it's a strange pastime :P

http://digitalkimdracula.deviantart.com/#/d5dp7w4 (http://digitalkimdracula.deviantart.com/#/d5dp7w4)

:)

[pigpen]

I feel like a total idiot..

Let me explain. I got together with this girl a few times..and then on what could be considered our 3rd date we talked at length about our past lovers/sexual encounters..
She hadn't talked to me in a few day following that date, and in the midst of her absence another girl i know asked if I'd like to join her for a drink.. I agreed, and as fate would have it, the bar we walk into just so happens to be the bar the first girl I was talking about is having drinks in..
So, she sees me out with some other girl... I feel like a total asshole.. I mean, it's not as though I was dating her or anything.. but she's not talked to me since, and that was almost a week ago. Fuck..
The worst part is, I was actually starting to really like that girl but thought maybe she lost interest because she stopped talking to me on FB...

Where the fuck is the reset button!?

[Piko]

But she hadn't talked to you in days? What was her impression? Maybe you're worrying over nothing?

[pigpen]

Yeah, which I thought was kind of strange since prior to that, we'd talk pretty frequently.. I thought maybe she'd lost interest, or something.

I mean, it WAS reasonable to accept the invitation out for drinks, right?

[Piko]

Technically, you did nothing wrong. You were interested in the one girl, but you hadn't talked to her in days. There's nothing wrong with keeping your options open. Did she shoot you a dirty look, or something? And if she did, was it because she thought you move from girl to girl, or maybe you move fast from girl to girl? Either way, you did nothing wrong. It seems like she might have lost interest.

[pigpen]

Yeah, I really don't know how she felt about the whole thing.. It probably shouldn't matter much, though. Nothing worth stressing about.. We had fun together and I really liked her, but I truthfully I don't think I was very attracted to her..I'm just hoping I didn't make myself look like a total asshole.

[Piko]

Funny thing about life, we're going to step on toes. We may not do it on purpose, but its gonna happen. We just have to deal with it and move forward, as shitty as that sounds. Sounded like a lost cause anyway. If I were in that situation, I'd just try to make the best of the circumstances. "She hasn't spoken to me in days, no harm, no foul". That's the impression I'd get and how I'd, personally, go about it. We're all different though.

Haven't seen this girl I talked about since Monday (few days, no big deal, right?). I thought we hit it off. But it sucks that I have no idea when I'll ever see her again, or even if. And it really sucks. Thought about looking to see where she works (she mentioned it, but my hearing kinda sucks these fays). I don't want to be THAT guy. But, I don't want to just stand around, wait, and do nothing. Kinda have it narrowed down of which store it could be. I hate having to do this though...

[pigpen]

Yeah, i don't know about THAT one. You may achieve the opposite of what you want if you go and try to track her down..

as far as my situation, I'll just let it ride I guess and see what, if anything happens. Not much else to do, really. You're right though, toes will get stepped on..

[Piko]

Yeah, I'm probably not going to track her down. If I see her again, awesome. If not, ah well...

[Nyx]

So.. she hasn't contacted you, but have you contacted her? You hung out, you liked her but you're not doing anything to find out whether she liked you too? Am I missing something here?
Edit: replying to Pigpen here.

[Dra508]

So.. she hasn't contacted you, but have you contacted her? You hung out, you liked her but you're not doing anything to find out whether she liked you too? Am I missing something here?
Edit: replying to Pigpen here.

Yeah, I sort think you should back the truck up on this one too. Pigpen, This first girl might have seen you with the second girl at this bar and thought "aw, I liked him, but he must not be that into me because he's with another girl". Every girl wants to feel like they are THE only girl. I've got to believe that is the same with guys. I'd give her a ring - you'll either get "Oh hi, I'm so glad you called" or "oh hi, how's that girl I saw you out with?" The later is a tell that she wants to know if she's got a chance with you. If you fuck up that answer, then yeah, you're toast.

Go forth and find out. Report back here pronto - I hate mysteries. :)

[pigpen]

I shall find out!! I SHALLL!!!!!

[pigpen]

UPDATE!

So, for whatever reason Virgin Mobile decided to pay for a month of service for me, since I was pretty much done with them and cell phones altogether..
BUT, I used this opportunity to then ask around for her number and text her.. I told her that while I didn't intentionally turn my damn phone back on, I did make sure to have her be the first person I texted with it.. To which she replied "You're a doll, i've been so busy with clinicals that I've not been able to be on FB"

Seems like it's working out!!!

[Magtig]

Time for a serious relationship talk. Things could go any number of ways. Yikes.

[dominik]

Time for a serious relationship talk. Things could go any number of ways. Yikes.

Good luck!

[Magtig]

Thanks, I'm nervous as hell. I care deeply about my girlfriend, but at this point I feel like we're more friends with benefits than in a romantic relationship. On paper everything about this should be rockin, but there's what should be and then there's real life. I'm just not feeling the sparks, so I have to tell her where I'm at tonight and hope that she's feeling some of the same things. Despite things getting a bit too routine in the romance department I've realized that she's my best friend and I care deeply about her.

I feel like there's something wrong with me for not being more on board. We have great sex, and I always enjoy her company, but when she's gone I feel apprehensive about hanging out with her again. Then when I do, I enjoy it. I'm so fucking confused right now.

[dominik]

We have great sex, and I always enjoy her company, but when she's gone I feel apprehensive about hanging out with her again. Then when I do, I enjoy it. I'm so fucking confused right now.

That's maybe a sign that you're not really in love with her. But why did you decide to change this situation?
And how did it go? :)

[AgentofChaos]

Didn't we go through this like 4 pages ago Magtig? You couldn't take my advice then, maybe you can take it now; do the right thing and let her go.

[Magtig]

Yeah, this came up five months ago, but there are other factors at play (although some are a retread). This stuff is also coming up because she is probably going to get a job offer in Texas, and she's planning on taking it. Two days ago (when I posted above) I told her all the same things I've said here. We had a good, honest talk. I also told her I needed more space. I don't think that has anything to do with her; I'm like that with everyone. I like going off to the desert alone and camping and being my weirdest self for days or weeks on end.

I think a little extra space will also help clarify my own feelings. For instance, if I find it a relief to be away from her that will be a pretty clear indication. On the other hand, if I miss her that will also be pretty clear. The thing is, once we really started talking about her leaving for Texas and that very real possibility sunk in, imagining my life without her made me very emotional. I'm going to miss her like crazy if she goes. Maybe my feelings are just buried under many layers of anxiety and it takes something like this to get to them, but I've never felt as close to her as I do right now. That alone has helped clarify quite a bit for me.

There is also the open relationship aspect of all this. We have an open relationship arrangement right now, but we agreed that if she left we would both date other people (something neither of us have done very seriously during this relationship). At this point I figure if she leaves we'll get a chance to meet up in other parts of the country and have awesome adventures every now and again, but we'll probably also have something else going on. If our paths cross later on down the line (if she moved back in several years, for example), I would be open to exploring a closer relationship at that point as well.

I've thought a lot today about what you've been saying, Agent of Chaos. I went back and reread all the old posts. You're very persuasive in a way because you've defined the world so clearly for yourself. In choosing a definition of what love is you have a prescribed methodology that's fairly black and white, and while that makes decision making easy, I know that the world is a million shades of grey. I think it's a little bit naive, is what I'm saying. You carved out a (somewhat) narrow definition of what love is to you and you've found it (which is great!), but I also have to remember that from what you were saying you have never had your heart broken. Therein lies the rub. My purview of love and relationships, as loaded with battle scars as it is, strongly cautions against taking admonishments and advice from someone who has never had their heart broken. Hell, I'm apprehensive about listening to people who have had their heart broken only once (they tend to be too bitter). That doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong, but I think you might be. At the very least the situation seems more dynamic than your assessment of it. I will say this though, if I really didn't have any love for her it would be the right thing to do to let her go (presumably so she could find that very thing in someone else), but I do. Outside of my family she's the most important person in my life.

At this point in time I feel good about it; my conscience is clear. I feel like I've gained quite a bit more clarity since talking with her and that both our relationship and friendship bonds are stronger than ever. I have no idea what twists and turns the future may hold, but this is where things are at right now. One step at a time.

[AgentofChaos]

Hey man I never once suggested you didn't love her. In fact, the exact opposite. But If you love someone, you set them free, right?

I have in fact had my heart broken many times. I have not however, been severely betrayed in a way that cut so deep that it truly fucked me up for an extended period/permanently i.e been cheated on, lies upon lies, stolen from, etc. So no, I don't have the scars that others here do. But doesn't the saying go its best way to love is as if you've never had your heart broken before?

I appreciate your situation is very different, and only you know what you know. I am also slightly out of my element in this open relationship aspect. I have been in a few, but unlike yourself not where I would say I loved them or cared about them deeply. That to me is all kinds of fucked up (not judging, just hard to wrap my head around as it kind of defeats the purpose? Unless you are talking about people who have been together or married for years, then that's a completely different analogy.) Yet in your case, both of you love each other, but neither is willing to commit fully to the other person, and only the two of you truly know why that's the case. Obviously I am left to merely speculate.

I can only tell you that in my case, I commit to a person first, and only then do I get to find out about love and how I've chosen to define it. I don't know how it could come before that commitment. I make a leap of faith, then hopefully (but not always) I get rewarded. Now I don't mean marriage or anything that grave - simply a mutually agreed upon declaration between two people that we stand together vs the world from this point until we decide otherwise. Once you stand together long enough, you can only then ultimately figure out if this is the person you will want be in love with for years to come.

I am thus forced to suspect, given my understanding of humanity, that at the end of the day, you've been with her long enough now that you would have made a commitment to this girl larger than an offer of an open relationship, if you really felt passionately about being with her. It's clear from the summation of your posts in this thread, that while you have some feelings for her, they are not the right type of feelings you desire in order to feel complete in your relationship. You think you are doing her a favour doing your due diligence to check whether these feelings are hidden deep down, when really, you are just wasting more and more of her time as you figure your shit out, while she gets older and less valuable on the open market. But that is also presupposing she wants more from you than she's getting. It's entirely plausible that she doesn't want a committed relationship with you either. Maybe she feels the same way you do; each of you with one foot in, one foot out of the relationship, with simply the unspoken understanding that you both enjoy each others company and have enough of the other tangibles in common that if neither of you can find their "soulmate" by x amount of time, you could do a lot worse than settling for each other. Nothing wrong with that, but if that's the case, come to terms with it and own it.

I'm not looking to argue with you, nor do I mean to trivialize your situation by breaking it down to it's most base level. Just calling it like I see it. And If I'm wrong, don't respond to this post to "fight" with me, telling me all the reasons why I don't understand your relationship.

Fight for her. She fuckin deserves it.

[Magtig]

I am also slightly out of my element in this open relationship aspect. I have been in a few, but unlike yourself not where I would say I loved them or cared about them deeply. That to me is all kinds of fucked up (not judging, just hard to wrap my head around as it kind of defeats the purpose?
...
I am thus forced to suspect, given my understanding of humanity, that at the end of the day, you've been with her long enough now that you would have made a commitment to this girl larger than an offer of an open relationship, if you really felt passionately about being with her.
There's quite a bit to unpack in your post, but it's actually kind of reassuring to me. Now I understand how little you understand me, or relationship configurations outside the norm. I'm not saying that to be inflammatory or because I'm angry, I'm not, I'm saying it because it doesn't appear to be obvious to you.

Given your view point I can hardly expect you to accept what I say about my relationship as valid, but I'll give it a go anyway. For the record, I'm not really trying to argue either; I'm trying to explain. The assumption that an open relationship is less than a closed one is not correct. The assumption that the commitment levels are less is incorrect as well. The assumption that one or both of us have one foot in the door and one out purely on the basis of our relationship configuration is also incorrect, as is the assumption that people in open relationships are really monogamists in waiting after they locate the right person. These things might be true for you and your outlook on life and relationships, but they aren't true for everyone. They're not true for me. The bonds are just as strong, the feelings are just as strong, and the commitments are just as strong. Sure, open relationships are different, and they're not for you as an individual, but they're not less than monogamous ones. They're just a different life style.

At a certain point I decided to be who I was and stop trying to have closed relationships. Not because I was having problems with cheating or anything like that, but because it's just who I am; it was a more honest way for me to live my life. I began telling the women I was dating up front that I simply didn't believe in monogamy ideologically. Eventually, I started to attract partners who felt the same way. I did this exact thing with my current girlfriend long before we committed to each other as primary partners.


You think you are doing her a favour doing your due diligence to check whether these feelings are hidden deep down, when really, you are just wasting more and more of her time as you figure your shit out, while she gets older and less valuable on the open market.
I really don't think of women as objects that belong on a market, or that lose value as they get older. Or men for that matter.


It's entirely plausible that she doesn't want a committed relationship with you either. Maybe she feels the same way you do; each of you with one foot in, one foot out of the relationship, with simply the unspoken understanding that you both enjoy each others company and have enough of the other tangibles in common that if neither of you can find their "soulmate" by x amount of time, you could do a lot worse than settling for each other. Nothing wrong with that, but if that's the case, come to terms with it and own it.
I find the whole idea of searching for a soulmate to be a really hollow and narcissistic pursuit. It's inextricably intertwined with the western binary of success vs failure which, when applied to love and relationships, almost always means you lose, especially in the long term. I'm not saying people don't find their soulmates, although I'd argue that those who do tend to do it without meaning to, I'm saying that I don't think about relationships in these terms ("success" vs "failure," quick! find your "soulmate"... is she under the rug? behind the drapes? hiding in your best friend? etc) anymore. I think about them more in terms of coming to know a person who enriches your life and vice versa. I once heard a wise person say that happiness is not something that you can pursue, but rather something that ensues as a result of a life well lived. I think you could pretty easily replace 'happiness' with 'a soulmate' in that sentence and it would be just as valid.


Fight for her. She fuckin deserves it.
This is a perfect example of how your outlook is a bit myopic, it presupposes that I haven't been doing exactly this just because I'm in an open relationship.

Anyway, we've probably both belabored this enough, but what I'm hoping you go away with is at least the possibility in your mind that different lifestyles are just different, not necessarily less.

[allegro]

This stuff is also coming up because she is probably going to get a job offer in Texas, and she's planning on taking it.
Ah, that explains a lot! Maybe you're apprehensive about being with her again when you're not with her because you're already protecting yourself and separating yourself early so you can ease the discomfort of separation? Maybe even subconsciously?

I was in a friends with benefits thing with somebody who gave me fair advance "notice" that he was interested in a "more serious" relationship (in which I was clearly NOT interested) and that he would be dating other females (but we could continue our relationship until that point, if I was so inclined). I thought I didn't give a rat's ass and said go ahead but it kinda bothered me a little when I saw him out with other girls, and I went from hanging with him [and sleeping with him] all the time to rarely seeing or hearing from him (he was apparently dating really needy girls). I chalked it off as senseless emotion and didn't say anything. Upon reflection, I realized it was because I no longer had him around as my pal and constant companion. And i was kinda lonely, so i took that as a cue to fill that void with new friends and activities. But, that period was kinda rough at first because of the transition, until I analyzed why and made the necessary adjustment [i made new friends to fill the companionship void left by him]. Point being: my initial interpretation of my reaction was wrong, and some time and space gave me clarity.

Anyway, just because your relationship isn't conventional by Western standards doesn't mean you don't have feelings and attachments, right? But, yeah, extra space probably will clarify your feelings.

"Feelings" is why I see "the lifestyle" fall apart sometimes; I mean, it's logical in accordance with biological definitions, but those pesky emotions sometimes get in the way (emotions, of course, not being logical).

[Magtig]

I don't know, maybe. Generally speaking I don't miss people all that much. I mean, I do, but it's probably a lot less than average. I'm happy to run into old friends, and it's good to see my family every now and again, but when they're not around I don't really pine for their company. It's just the way I am. I have no idea if I'm answering the first question here.

As far as the second question, I definitely have feelings and attachments. Emotions and jealousy play a major role in many relationships whether traditional or non-traditional. It's just how it goes, especially if people are poly. I have two friends who are madly in love with each other and they have an orgy every other week at their house. They just got married after nine (!!!) years in a relationship together and they seem deliriously happy. Oh, and by the way they're also in love with another couple down the street. Point is, you're probably better off being with people who not only accept you as you are in terms of lifestyle, they are also part of that same thing. But lifestyle will never cancel out relationship issues and emotional conflict.

[icklekitty]

How far is Texas from you?

I think the idea to still stay in the same sort of relationship zone with each other while still seeing other people is a good one (I'm currently trying to find something more local as each of my partners live out of the city and we only get to see each other about once a month; I still like them as much but I need...something local). In this regard, your relationship shouldn't change at all.

What you do need to look at (in isolation to all of the above) is what sort of feelings you have for her. Is it beyond a really good friend that you find attractive? Do you think about the future with her? Are you happy to not see her for three months and then have a really intense weekend? Will you feel lack in between or a burden during? Essentially, does the "girlfriend" label still apply and what does that word even mean to you?

[littlemonkey613]

Has anyone on here never been in a monogamous relationship? I don't think I'm capable of monogamy in my life (something I quite like about myself) and I've been looking for words of advice in terms of how to navigate in terms of constantly having to explain myself to people I love, like and just want to fool around with. It's already really annoying and I'm still a youngin'.

[botley]

Just say upfront "I have no interest in sexual exclusivity" and proceed from there. What are you constantly having to explain?

[Leman Russ]

Just say upfront "I have no interest in sexual exclusivity" and proceed from there. What are you constantly having to explain?

My guess is that monkey has to constantly explain and re-explain this very simple fact. Most people hear someone say "I have no interest in sexual exclusivity" and think "But I'll be different. They'll want to be exclusive with me.", or "He's just kidding around because he's scared to commit", or "I didn't think you were serious". People generally hear these things and imagine the person speaking them is not being serious.

[jessamineny]

I like how you assume littlemonkey is a man :D

[littlemonkey613]

Haha its ok the other day my friend said their cousin was a jazz guitarist and I asked for HIS name even though I'm a jazz guitarist myself o.O. I slapped my hand with the imaginary sexist ruler.

No yeah its essentially that people think that I'm this way because I haven't found the "right" person or that "one day I'll see" what its like to want to be with someone. And I'm like yeah no.....It's also something I feel quite strongly about for ideological reasons so it makes it that much more annoying.

The worst is when people get annoyed that I DONT get jealous. Like people want me to give two fucks about what they are doing with their body with who and when and then get mad at me when I don't care o.O and then try to reason that I'm suppressing something all natural and human.

I guess it more or less comes down to me being more forward in saying what I want but its also hard not to be bullied by the norm. But its getting better.

Having to explain things to family is awful too b/c who I sleep with and whether I am sleeping with the boy (or girl) I bring to dinner is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS or anyone elses! They are constantly trying to box me in and define what I am in terms of my relationships with other people. RAWR.

[Leman Russ]

Actually, I tried to keep it as gender neutral as possible.

But, I feel your pain, monkey. I get this reaction just about every day when I tell people I don't want any more kids. Yes, I am an incredibly devoted father. Yes, I love every second spent with my child. Yes, I wish there were 26 hours in a day so I could have more time with her. No, I don't want anymore kids. No, I don't want anything to do with yours, either.

People have spent the last 6 years telling me I would grow out of it, and that I'd change my mind, and that I'd meet "the right person I'd want to have more with". Yet year after year, they're still wrong. I just don't get why people have to constantly try and shoehorn others into their own visions. Like the married people who are always trying to fix up their single friends, I guess they just can't fathom how a good dad can not be interested in doing it all over again.

[Piko]

Saw the girl again. Not only does she have a guy friend (of three years), but she's kinda "out there". At first I thought, "OK, she has a bf. Now what?". But the more the talk to her, I'm more and more uninterested... ah well.

[Dra508]

People have spent the last 6 years telling me I would grow out of it, and that I'd change my mind, and that I'd meet "the right person I'd want to have more with". Yet year after year, they're still wrong. I just don't get why people have to constantly try and shoehorn others into their own visions. Like the married people who are always trying to fix up their single friends, I guess they just can't fathom how a good dad can not be interested in doing it all over again.You are not alone. I know a guy just like you. Has one, is done, leave him alone. People don't know how - it's quite amazing. I'll ask you a question though - you said her, so you have a daughter. Never ever feel like maybe another so I could have a boy?

[Space Suicide]

Saw the girl again. Not only does she have a guy friend (of three years), but she's kinda "out there". At first I thought, "OK, she has a bf. Now what?". But the more the talk to her, I'm more and more uninterested... ah well.

I see, I see.

Zany good or bad?

[Piko]

I see, I see.

Zany good or bad?

At first I was like, "does having a boyfriend matter?". Then I got to know her better, and realized she's just not my type, personality wise. Plus, she's nine years younger than I am, and it shows. I like being around younger girls for some reason. Fun to be around I guess. She makes random cat sounds too... I'm still being nice and everything. Fine for a friend, but nothing beyond that.

[Leman Russ]

You are not alone. I know a guy just like you. Has one, is done, leave him alone. People don't know how - it's quite amazing. I'll ask you a question though - you said her, so you have a daughter. Never ever feel like maybe another so I could have a boy?

Nope. From day one I am glad I had a daughter. I never got the whole "someone to pass on my name" feeling that some people get. It's been really fun doing a lot of things typically seen father/son activities with her, like teaching her baseball, watching sports, etc...and I love doing all the dad/daughter stuff like tea parties, nail painting, and doing hair. She gets quite a kick out of it too

[playwithfire]

Has anyone on here never been in a monogamous relationship? I don't think I'm capable of monogamy in my life (something I quite like about myself) and I've been looking for words of advice in terms of how to navigate in terms of constantly having to explain myself to people I love, like and just want to fool around with. It's already really annoying and I'm still a youngin'.

I haven't. The closest thing was in college when I was kind of involved with a guy over a long distance and we both kind of operated on an understanding that if we hooked up with someone else, we'd end things. But, at 23 I've never been in an official relationship.

I've never had to be monogamous, so while I've been monogamous in practice, it's not how my brain works, I always think about other people like I can pursue them, if that makes any sense. I think I'm capable of it, but I honestly don't know.

Whether or not I'm monogamous is actually something I find kind of confusing, but, on the bright side there's no pressure for me to be right now.

There are lots of poly people out there, just be up front about it and you'll find similar people and avoid surprising others.

edit- After seeing your response. Yeah, people who don't understand you are gonna ask you weird questions. That's super lame. I guess you can always decline to talk about it?

[botley]

No yeah its essentially that people think that I'm this way because I haven't found the "right" person or that "one day I'll see" what its like to want to be with someone. And I'm like yeah no.....It's also something I feel quite strongly about for ideological reasons so it makes it that much more annoying.
Who are these people with whom you're constantly having to repeat these conversations? Friends? Family? Lovers? Is it that you place stock in their value-judgments even though they are coming from a place of ignorance? I get bummed out as anyone else about the state of repressed sexuality in our culture but I tend to just let people hold on to their prejudices, and live my own life as I see fit. I'm not into ideological evangelism except where it is clearly a matter of life and death. At the end of the day, it's just sex.


The worst is when people get annoyed that I DONT get jealous. Like people want me to give two fucks about what they are doing with their body with who and when and then get mad at me when I don't care o.O and then try to reason that I'm suppressing something all natural and human.
Again, ignorance. Anyone who presumes to understand what is natural for YOU is behaving like an idiot.


I guess it more or less comes down to me being more forward in saying what I want but its also hard not to be bullied by the norm. But its getting better.
I feel you. Once you see through the facade of "normality" most people around us have enforced over top of the broad, bewildering spectrum of human desires it's shitty feeling like you have to play the game too. But the fact is, you don't have to, most of the time, as long as you're honest with yourself and other people.


Having to explain things to family is awful too b/c who I sleep with and whether I am sleeping with the boy (or girl) I bring to dinner is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS or anyone elses! They are constantly trying to box me in and define what I am in terms of my relationships with other people. RAWR.
This can be brutally painful but you really should try being totally honest in piping up and telling them when these judgments and questions make you feel uncomfortable; instead of repressing that feeling, let it out in a healthy, honest way. If you have love and trust in your family then this will be painful but ultimately worth it. Afterwards, when they feel like prying, they'll be more inclined to give it a second thought before the question even leaves their lips.

Just my two cents.

[allegro]

You are not alone. I know a guy just like you. Has one, is done
There are a lot of us here on ETS that one-up that:

We have NONE and we're done.

[Leman Russ]

There are a lot of us here on ETS that one-up that:

We have NONE and we're done.

Very true. The none and doners that I know also get quite a few "oh you'll change your mind later" remarks as well.

[allegro]

Nobody ever said that to me. Ever.

But, I did get a LOT of "but, who will take care of you when you're [old, sick, dying, bored, need money]?"

[pigpen]

Last night in Madison I met this beautiful, charming, funny, lady at The Wood Brothers show.. Then I met her boyfriend..

While that may sound like a bummer of a story, it reminded me of what it feels like when I'm ACTUALLY attracted to/compelled by a girl.
I've been going back and forth on how I felt about the girl I mentioned earlier in this thread, and meeting this girl last night really clarified things for me. I want to feel all swoony and lustful for a woman, and I'm just not getting that from her.

Fucking boyfriends.


My buddy texted me while I was talking to her, he told me to get her number..But at that point I already knew what the deal was. He told me later that he kept watching her steal smiley glances at me during the entire show.. Not cool, universe. Not cool.

[Pillfred]

After a few trysts with some random ladies I met one the other day who i think i may like. Not to say i didn't like the others but the signs came fairly quick that shit was not gonna be good. I got my own brand of crazy that doesn't need any tag alongs. This girl however is a roommate of a girl i work with and i ran into them the other night downtown. Ended up going back to their place, was totally cool with crashing on the couch but that didn't happen. Then we ended up basically just chilling in bed the whole next day. Now this i guess could still be whatever, but it seemed really just kind of natural and easy. Clearly this is may be way to soon to invest too much into it, and though we've talked since we havent hung out since. I could go either way i guess, as far as type of relationship goes, as somewhat similar to some of the above posts I'm not really sure what I wan't at this point other than maybe someone who's fun to hang with etc. In any event im pretty stoked to meet a cool seemingly level headed generally stable woman. It's weird as im coming into this sort of thing fairly late in the game. Hopefully it works out as she's really funny.

[slave2thewage]

So, my boyfriend confessed to letting some guy go down on him when I was in England the other week...

[Fixer808]

Doesn't count, if you believe Bill Clinton.

Seriously, though, that's a dick move (no pun intended)...

[JessicaSarahS]

So, my boyfriend confessed to letting some guy go down on him when I was in England the other week...

:mad: What an asshole.

[wikkid]

Well isn't this fun. I am back in the old hood. Haha! So after weeding through the mass of psychos that were waiting for me after divorce, I thought I had found a nice girl that was fun, liked me for me, and was genuine and somewhat normal, it turns out she lived an hour away and that was too far for her to ever make it to visit me. So as things dragged on and I went to see her a lot, things fizzled out and I started to get tired of being the only one who seemed to even try to hang out. We called it quits after two or three weeks of me NOT going to visit her in her boring ass world. I need adventure, fun, music, and more importantly need to feel like someone wants to see me not just the other way around. Time for a hard reset button in my life. I have a great job, a great kid and a lust for more than a cookie cutter Better Homes and Garden suburbian lifestyle. I've decided that the best place is single until somebody comes looking for a man in the best part of his life. I am happier than ever, still going to as many shows as possible and having the time of my life raising my son. That is my rant and I am sticking to it.

Hi Dra and allegro. I miss your advice.

[Dra508]

Hi Dra and allegro. I miss your advice.Clearly, ya'll don't need my advice. :D

[allegro]

^ Um ... Ditto!

[slave2thewage]

Single again! Anyone happen to have any gay friends who would look like Matt Bellamy?

[Lunatica]

Two years in December!!!

We are happily living together and better than ever.

My unsolicited advice for all the single ladies: Work over and resolve your issues with your Father, preferably with a nice and understanding woman psychologist.

[allegro]

Living together?! Awesome!!!

Yeah, that's some good advise. (Even after you're not single. I probably should follow your lead.)

[Pillfred]

Things are going pretty good with the new lady friend. Met some of her friends as siblings the other night while out. They all seem pretty cool and seem to like me as well. Really odd how this came about but so far, so good.

[playwithfire]

This is going to be a long post. I'm trying to figure things out.

Non-monogamy is confusing. I truly feel like it's worthwhile, but I need to learn how to be more positive about me and my gentleman friend's situation. We're currently not hooking up with other people (not that I ever have hooked up with someone else... due basically exclusively to the fact that I don't tend to meet new people and am kind of lazy about making that happen) since I feel pretty weird about the idea of it right now, but that's something I want to be temporary. I want to be poly, I just want it to be awesome and positive. I'm going to read Opening Up and stuff; I want to figure this out.

It doesn't help that the times he has done something with someone else, it's not been a positive experience for me.

We've always been this vague non-relationship... but we're eachother's "primary partner" or whatever and we do care about each other and are set on keeping each other as the "most important" person or whatever. If that makes any sense... but we've both been relationship-shy and have never really wanted to commit. It's a relationship of some form, but we don't really call each other boyfriend and girlfriend.

The first time he had sex with someone (in like July and this was the first time he'd done ANYTHING with someone else when we were seeing each other) was not that long after he'd introduced some ideas like... he wanted to know that there was a chance this could become a relationship one day or whatever... so we were trying to figure that out and just weren't very solid. So I was trying to view things as something serious, seeing if I could, etc... Not a good time to hook up with someone else. I don't have positive feelings about that. He did it one other time with her, and that time he forgot to promptly tell me, which also wasn't okay, but not as big of a deal as him hooking up with her in the first place.

I want to feel GOOD about him hooking up with someone else, and what I've learned from all of this is that when we're not being monogamous, I want US to be super super solid and communicative and secure. Because I don't feel comfortable with it when we're not.

The other two times he's done anything with people was just making out... once when super drunk with a friend of ours (completely 100% fine with me) and once with a girl at a party I'd also been at, this was a few weeks ago... which is a long story, but basically I wasn't cool with it at all and felt like it was a party foul. He'd asked my permission as I was leaving the club and I was (and had been) super depressed and I basically told him to do whatever and that it was fine. It was hard for me to really think about it and make a decision that quickly. So, maybe I gave permission and I'll own that, but I realized afterward that I felt pretty bad about it and that he wouldn't have been cool with it if the tables had been reversed. It wasn't a jealousy thing, it was a feeling disrespected thing. And, to me, you shouldn't do something you'd mind me doing. He basically said he knows I'm cool with different things... but to me that kind of comes down to you seeing a chance to make out with someone and going for it. He ended up feeling really, really, really crappy about all of that.

And of course, I wouldn't be cool with them hooking up again, and he feels like he led her on. I think he should have assumed after I took it so badly that I wouldn't be fine with it. I don't really know this girl... it'd be different to me if we were friends or something, but we're not, and I felt like she was kinda rude.

So like, for the most part, the experiences we've had so far with poly stuff haven't been great. And I want to be good at this, and I want to feel good about him hooking up with other people. I'll take any and all advice. Right now, I think we just need to work on our relationship and being more solid with each other. I need to figure out why I feel insecure or jealous, and what to do about it. I feel like most things come from me feeling like I mean less to him, and that he'll hook up with someone basically because he finds them attractive and because he can... which is a fine reason! Why do I have a problem with that! Is it the meaning less thing?

Basically, this shit is confusing.

[allegro]

Magtig may disagree with me on this, but I think human beings are hardwired for serial monogamy. The tinges of jealous are biological. Because, biologically, we're supposed to mate, but we're also supposed to be concerned about having a reliable partner who's going to hunt and gather and provide while we nest. Of course, this doesn't apply to our modern lives with modern philosophies and intellect, but it's hard fighting biology. Just like it's hard for us to fight biology by mating for life, because humans are not hardwired to mate for life, either.

Intellectually, we can sort all this out and it makes perfect sense. But, do not think that you have some emotional baggage or deficiency because it makes you feel funny. That's just normal stuff, not a symptom.

edit: HOWEVER ... commitment avoidance being the primary reason for polyamory COULD be something you may want to investigate. It reminds me of friends who were attracted to married men and couldn't figure out why. Just sayin'.

[icklekitty]

Perhaps you're not in a poly phase of your life (either it's not right for THIS relationship, or THIS guy's particular habits), or perhaps polyamory (which is different to an open relationship in my opinion - more "baby polyamory", because it seems to be a relationship with some outside play sometimes) isn't really for you.

Here is some anal micro-analysis and hopefully not too much comparison to myself:

"not that I ever have hooked up with someone else... due basically exclusively to the fact that I don't tend to meet new people and am kind of lazy about making that happen" - Just want to say that I understand this perspective. Poly or not, there still needs to be someone around that makes you want to give a shit to do something in the first place.

"I want to be poly" - You repeat this a couple of times. To me "I want to be poly" is a bit like "I want to be gay" - you can test the waters but it's not really something you can force.


"The first time he had sex with someone (in like July and this was the first time he'd done ANYTHING with someone else when we were seeing each other) was not that long after he'd introduced some ideas like... he wanted to know that there was a chance this could become a relationship one day or whatever... so we were trying to figure that out and just weren't very solid. So I was trying to view things as something serious, seeing if I could, etc... Not a good time to hook up with someone else. I don't have positive feelings about that. He did it one other time with her, and that time he forgot to promptly tell me, which also wasn't okay, but not as big of a deal as him hooking up with her in the first place." - I can see how this might make what you're trying to sort out between the two of your confusing. Can you pinpoint what didn't make you feel positive? How was his sleeping with someone else contradictory to how deep of a relationship this was to be? Regardless of the depth, poly largely means doing things with other people is OK. The first time he slept with her, did he tell you straight away?


"I want to feel GOOD about him hooking up with someone else, and what I've learned from all of this is that when we're not being monogamous, I want US to be super super solid and communicative and secure. Because I don't feel comfortable with it when we're not." - Expand on that. Is he lying or holding things from you? Is he hiding things? These are important things to be worried about whether or not you are polyamorous.

"once with a girl at a party I'd also been at, this was a few weeks ago... which is a long story, but basically I wasn't cool with it at all and felt like it was a party foul. He'd asked my permission as I was leaving the club and I was (and had been) super depressed and I basically told him to do whatever and that it was fine. It was hard for me to really think about it and make a decision that quickly". - is the problem that he was doing this in front of you? Why was his kissing another girl not OK here but OK in other situations? For me, another girl is another girl, no matter of the circumstances, and I've never been unhappy about my partners suddenly seeing/pursuing someone (to be honest if I were in a shit mood, that would really cheer me up as I'd feel happiness vicariously through theirs). It's just a question that would never cross my mind. But if there are circumstances that you're not comfortable with the two of you need to establish rules, else he'll get confused and you'll get upset. This is an issue of consent for you, which is why I proposed that this could be more of an open relationship earlier. BUT If they're actively neglecting me, that's different - was he "ditching" you to go to her?

"And of course, I wouldn't be cool with them hooking up again, and he feels like he led her on. I think he should have assumed after I took it so badly that I wouldn't be fine with it. I don't really know this girl... it'd be different to me if we were friends or something, but we're not, and I felt like she was kinda rude." - This is a whole mixed bag of things. What happened to tarnish this hook-up in future? Is she that shit a person or is it something else? "He should have assumed" implies a breakdown of communication on your part. Do you need to know this girl? Do you want a relationship with the third party too (this is a triad relationship), and is it important that the two of you get on? Personally I don't give a shit so long as they're good to my partner and I don't get AIDS at any point.

Essentially, not being jealous is the key. I KNOW my partners feel X about me and so long as they commit to what they state (one I'm really deeply involved with emotionally and the other I only commit to as a "really sexy friend") I believe them and trust them. Sometimes I won't see either of them for weeks on end, sometimes I hear that they're actively pursuing other girls, and that's fine. That has no bearing on me. For me, this isn't something I've had to learn, and I don't know if it should come naturally or if I'm just lucky. It's like...a parent with several children. When a new baby comes along the love for the older kid doesn't whine. Although not all kids want new siblings! One of my partners does have a girlfriend who gets quite jealous, but she willingly came forward to be girlfriend number 2 (he has 4 in total), so I can't really explain her anxieties.

[allegro]

^ Wow, that was a really interesting post, thanks for that!

[playwithfire]

Well, me being commitment shy and me liking polyamory feel like different things. And I think maybe I'm less afraid of commitment than I was... Especially if commitment doesn't mean monogamy. I like being emotionally committed, I guess. I dunno.

And, I do think some level of jealousy is healthy. I just need to figure out what provokes that or feeling insecure or whatevs. I think the main thing is our lack of an emotionally solid feeling relationship.

Thanks for the input!

[Dra508]

For me, this isn't something I've had to learn, and I don't know if it should come naturally or if I'm just lucky. To me, THIS sums it up for me as to what and how you are poly-amorous..

And I agree wholeheartedly with allergo's comment about serial monogamy. At a personal level that one scares me. I'm dating someone who clearly is that way and I don't want to end up being on the bad end of a seven-year itch.

[playwithfire]

Woah, I will read Shreena's post when I can, at work. Totally missed it. Fail.

[playwithfire]

"I want to be poly" - You repeat this a couple of times. To me "I want to be poly" is a bit like "I want to be gay" - you can test the waters but it's not really something you can force.

Well, I say "I want to be poly." because it's... a thing that I want and a thing I think would work for me. Like, for me, the idea of pursuing multiple relationships/sexy things with people seems great, especially (actually, depending on) that the serious relationships I have are stable and working well. Like, if I was happier with what this guy and I have, I imagine him being with someone else would be a lot more positive for me. But, we're putting a hold on that because we want to figure this out.

Maybe I'll get that... us working well and then seeing other people and find out it still doesn't work for me, but I have a feeling it would/will. And if it doesn't, well, I'll find out. You know, maybe he and I won't manage that due to our dynamic. But, I do feel like this is something that would work really well for me. And I'm open to learning that it does or doesn't. This is the first time I've really been in a situation quite like this, and I want to try it. All of my other vague non-relationships/hookups have happened one at a time, due mostly to circumstance.


I can see how this might make what you're trying to sort out between the two of your confusing. Can you pinpoint what didn't make you feel positive? How was his sleeping with someone else contradictory to how deep of a relationship this was to be? Regardless of the depth, poly largely means doing things with other people is OK. The first time he slept with her, did he tell you straight away?


He basically did tell me right away. One of the things I've learned (and it was this experience that really taught me) is that for us to see other people without it making me feel weird, I need for us to be solid. We weren't. For one thing, I was trying to actually look at this relationship as something with potential for seriousness (and exclusivity, supposedly, at the time) and commitment (and this was in response to issues he'd brought up) and... we were generally not doing amazingly. It wasn't that he'd had sex with someone else, it was that he did it when he did. At the time, I kept just thinking it was such bad timing.


"I want to feel GOOD about him hooking up with someone else, and what I've learned from all of this is that when we're not being monogamous, I want US to be super super solid and communicative and secure. Because I don't feel comfortable with it when we're not." - Expand on that. Is he lying or holding things from you? Is he hiding things? These are important things to be worried about whether or not you are polyamorous.

There's none of that, it's usually more that we'll be sucking at seeing each other/staying in touch (And I know that matters to me, it absolutely does.) or one of us will be feeling weird about some sort of unrelated issue...


"once with a girl at a party I'd also been at, this was a few weeks ago... which is a long story, but basically I wasn't cool with it at all and felt like it was a party foul. He'd asked my permission as I was leaving the club and I was (and had been) super depressed and I basically told him to do whatever and that it was fine. It was hard for me to really think about it and make a decision that quickly". - is the problem that he was doing this in front of you? Why was his kissing another girl not OK here but OK in other situations? For me, another girl is another girl, no matter of the circumstances, and I've never been unhappy about my partners suddenly seeing/pursuing someone (to be honest if I were in a shit mood, that would really cheer me up as I'd feel happiness vicariously through theirs). It's just a question that would never cross my mind. But if there are circumstances that you're not comfortable with the two of you need to establish rules, else he'll get confused and you'll get upset. This is an issue of consent for you, which is why I proposed that this could be more of an open relationship earlier. BUT
If they're actively neglecting me, that's different - was he "ditching" you to go to her?
It wasn't that I felt ditched/or neglected, or even really jealous... I just felt kind of disrespected. Just that it was kind of rude. If I hadn't been there, I wouldn't have minded... but generally I am good with the idea of sticking to one person if I'm there with them that night. Maybe in the future if we were more used to this that would change, but at least for now, I would rather someone go "Sorry, I'm with Lydia tonight, maybe another time?" or whatever. Rules are good, I think us learning what bothers us and what we're comfortable with are important. And like I said, he most likely would have had a problem with me doing that if the tables were reversed. And, that matters.


"And of course, I wouldn't be cool with them hooking up again, and he feels like he led her on. I think he should have assumed after I took it so badly that I wouldn't be fine with it. I don't really know this girl... it'd be different to me if we were friends or something, but we're not, and I felt like she was kinda rude." - This is a whole mixed bag of things. What happened to tarnish this hook-up in future? Is she that shit a person or is it something else? "He should have assumed" implies a breakdown of communication on your part. Do you need to know this girl? Do you want a relationship with the third party too (this is a triad relationship), and is it important that the two of you get on? Personally I don't give a shit so long as they're good to my partner and I don't get AIDS at any p ioint.
I feel (and maybe a lot of that is my reaction and not legit) like they were disrespectful. I don't really know the girl, and while maybe that wasn't her intent at all, I basically felt like she was kind of rude. We barely spoke that evening, I hardly know her, and I'm sure that contributes to me feeling that she was. She's probably a nice person, but to me, she/they really came off the wrong way and it's cast the idea of them hooking up in a bad light. I'm not super attracted to her, so it's unlikely that I'd want anything with her, especially given that I feel the way I do about her (which isn't hostile or anything, like I said I'm sure she's a nice person, but isn't particularly great) To me, this event wasn't hugely upsetting or anything, but it's unlikely that I'll like them hooking up unless I became friends with her or something. That's how I feel about it, I dunno. And I will SO own that it's probably unfair that I think he should have assumed, and I'm not holding that over him or anything, because I also assumed he'd know it wasn't okay to me.


Essentially, not being jealous is the key. I KNOW my partners feel X about me and so long as they commit to what they state (one I'm really deeply involved with emotionally and the other I only commit to as a "really sexy friend") I believe them and trust them. Sometimes I won't see either of them for weeks on end, sometimes I hear that they're actively pursuing other girls, and that's fine. That has no bearing on me. For me, this isn't something I've had to learn, and I don't know if it should come naturally or if I'm just lucky. It's like...a parent with several children. When a new baby comes along the love for the older kid doesn't whine. Although not all kids want new siblings! One of my partners does have a girlfriend who gets quite jealous, but she willingly came forward to be girlfriend number 2 (he has 4 in total), so I can't really explain her anxieties.

Yeah, I can't say that I feel that great about us right now. I care about him, I don't think our problems are earth shattering. I trust him to not lie to me... but I don't feel as good about us as I'd like at all. I think the key to that for me is going to be us just talking through it and staying in better touch. But, I intend to figure out what might cause jealousy/envy/certain ambivalence and work on it.

Seriouly, cheers for the input, this is really helpful.

[aggroculture]

Magtig may disagree with me on this, but I think human beings are hardwired for serial monogamy. The tinges of jealous are biological. Because, biologically, we're supposed to mate, but we're also supposed to be concerned about having a reliable partner who's going to hunt and gather and provide while we nest. Of course, this doesn't apply to our modern lives with modern philosophies and intellect, but it's hard fighting biology. Just like it's hard for us to fight biology by mating for life, because humans are not hardwired to mate for life, either.

Intellectually, we can sort all this out and it makes perfect sense. But, do not think that you have some emotional baggage or deficiency because it makes you feel funny. That's just normal stuff, not a symptom.

edit: HOWEVER ... commitment avoidance being the primary reason for polyamory COULD be something you may want to investigate. It reminds me of friends who were attracted to married men and couldn't figure out why. Just sayin'.

Evolutionary psychology has been critiqued for basically projecting into a fantasy (the whole hunter/gather narrative) conservative ideas about the nuclear family, which itself is only a century or so old.
This book I read a couple years ago argues that when we were hunter/gatherers we lived in packs, not nuclear family units, and were perhaps polyamorous, mating and bringing up kids in common, as a tribe:
http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dawn-Stray-Modern-Relationships/dp/0061707813/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353532658&sr=8-1&keywords=sex+at+dawn
It's not a perfect book but did contain some interesting ideas.

[Magtig]

This has mostly been covered by Icklekitty, and somewhat acknowledged by you, Lydia, but I don't think your problems have anything to do with polyamory. Your problems stem from lack of communication and boundaries. You'd likely be having similar problems with this person regardless of the configuration.

You keep saying you were disrespected, but I still don't get exactly what it was that was disrespectful towards you. You say that he would have been mad if the tables were turned, but is that the reason you're upset? Just because he would have been? If I can't figure it out and you can't explain it, how do you expect your partner to know? If the two of you don't define your relationship and define the rules ("no making out wit da bitches while I'm with you at the party" for example) of course it's going to be a problem. You gave him a free pass, and then resented him for it later when you should have just said what you were thinking, "I would feel disrespected if you did made out wit dat ho-ass ho." Strong open relationships are like any other serious relationship; they're established on clear negotiation and communication.

[Clownboat]

There's also the expectation that comes into play. It can seem rather tiny and even petty, but a lot of times people will feel upset or even jealous because they feel like they have to be upset or jealous. In a monogamous relationship once, I was cheated on, and I made it known that I was upset and pissed about it, but I don't think I actually felt that way. I raised a fuss about it because I felt like it was the thing I "should" be doing. When I realized I didn't actually care, I had to debate with myself to see if I didn't care because I didn't care about the relationship, or if I didn't care because it just wasn't a big deal to me. It was an important realization for me.

Could be off the mark (and certainly hasn't always applied to me), but hey, food for thought.

[playwithfire]

Food for thought is always good.


You keep saying you were disrespected, but I still don't get exactly what it was that was disrespectful towards you. You say that he would have been mad if the tables were turned, but is that the reason you're upset? Just because he would have been? If I can't figure it out and you can't explain it, how do you expect your partner to know? If the two of you don't define your relationship and define the rules ("no making out wit da bitches while I'm with you at the party" for example) of course it's going to be a problem. You gave him a free pass, and then resented him for it later when you should have just said what you were thinking, "I would feel disrespected if you did made out wit dat ho-ass ho." Strong open relationships are like any other serious relationship; they're established on clear negotiation and communication.

Yay! I'm glad you chimed in on this. Also, holy shit, it feels nice to be back on a working keyboard, anyway:

Well, I say that I felt disrespected. Which is a semi-important distinction because I don't think he would ever intentionally disrespect me. (Which is almost an extreme way of putting it. Mostly it just felt kinda rude/uncool. So maybe I shouldn't use that word.) I mean, he asked me, after all. Do I feel like it was a bad time to ask me? Yes. Am I the reigning queen of ambivalence and tend to need time to mull it over? Also yes. I did give him a pass, and then realized I how I felt about it afterwards. If I'd had a problem with it at the time, I'd have absolutely said something... but since I was in a shitty emotional state already, I failed so hard at knowing how I felt. I seriously didn't know, so I told him to go for it. I had to think about it. The good thing is, now I know that I don't like the idea of him doing something with someone when I'm there unless I'm participating. Especially if it's not a friend.

But yes, I told him it was okay. I'm not trying to punish him for it or anything. Overall it's not a big deal at all once we talked through it... I didn't want or expect him to feel so bad about it (but this was attached to a bigger issue where he feels like he's the crappy one out of the two of us, which is so not true and something we need to work on). And this hasn't become a lingering issue for the most part. I just don't love the idea of them hooking up and I think that's fair, given that it kind of soured the idea for me. It actually has a lot more to do with her than him. The whole way she went about coming on to him just didn't go over well with me, and maybe I'm missing key info, but given that we didn't really talk that night at all, who knows. So yeah, I'd rather they not hook up. Maybe that's jerkish of me, but I'd respect the same boundary from him. And I'm completely fine with him putting that on me when/if they talk if he feels like he led her on. Be like "Lydia has a problem with blah blah blah and I didn't realize she would." Totally fine.

And no, I didn't mind it just because he would have. I think if anything I used that point to try to make my perspective make sense to him? Like, I mind this, but wouldn't you? Also yeah, I probably did do some "Why did you think that was cool if it's not cool with you?" to him, which wasn't fair, but I did. I think in the future I need to hopefully be more careful that he doesn't have to guess at something or mind when he makes the wrong assumption, even if to me that comes from him not thinking about it. That's a good goal.

But, like I said, overall this isn't really a problem (especially since it's specific to the two of them. It's just a solid "not cool" with me and I wouldn't say that about him hooking up with anyone else.)... I was more recounting it to explain things, but yes!

And, we had issues with communication and things (and the fact that we're both amazing about being confused by our feelings) before anything happened with anyone else, that's true. I just think a consequence of it is that I end up feeling weird about him hooking up with someone else. I'm hoping with a little bit of time and just better communication/seeing each other more and me working on my issues I won't feel weird about things anymore. Yeah!

And I hope it's not coming off like I think I'm in the right about certain things, that's not it at all, I'm just trying to be honest about my feelings. Which may be unreasonable in some ways.

[Magtig]

Ah, a delayed reaction. Totally valid, but you should tell him what happened and how. You're on the right track. It's also valid for you to be upset if she was rude to you (although I haven't really seen anything on that other than, 'the way she did it'). If my lady was looking to sleep with some guy who had been an asshole to me that would definitely not go over well, and not out of jealousy; out of assholousy.

I think it's interesting that you seem to want him to be involved with mutual friends and people you know. In my relationship it's the opposite. I'm not making a value comment one way or the other on this I just wanted to point it out as an example of how different arrangements can be.

---

On that delayed reaction thing... this might only loosely qualify as relationship thread fodder, but the type of relationship was never really specified so here goes. A business acquaintance and I had been hinting around about him representing me as an artist on a limited preliminary basis. He's a photographer, but he's better with business than I am. I went to his house the other night to discuss a mutually beneficial relationship and he started the night off by jokingly asking me if I was gay because I mentioned not being into sports. The audience for the joke was his wife, who had stopped by the office. She obviously thought the joke was in bad taste and protested, but he laughingly brushed it off saying, "Oh don't worry, he has a girlfriend."

At the time I really didn't react, but after reflection I have to say that I'm actually pretty pissed off. What an obnoxious thing to say. I wish I would have told him that girlfriends have no bearing on the totality of a person's sexuality, and that I wasn't entirely straight anyway (which is a weird way to avoid a term I have little fondness for, bisexual, but that's a different discussion).

He went on to whine about how people don't respond when spoken to anymore, and that no one had been responding to his agenda laden gifts to clients, with whom he had no personal relationships, or followup emails. Again I had a delayed reaction, although even at the time I found it a little alarming that he was so stuck on blaming others for a social contract that is clearly (and thankfully) an anachronism.

Both incidents screamed 'old world thinking' to me, and now I'm trying to figure out if I'm blowing it out of proportion. I've certainly heard worse jokes, and I don't really think he hates the gays. He has been helpful in the past, and has shown some indication of moral backbone, but he's also shown a rigidity that works against him and now, possibly even some latent homophobia. Hell, maybe that has nothing to do with it, and I'm drawing connections between dots when I shouldn't.

[playwithfire]

Well, basically from what I understand how it went down, she asked him if I was his girlfriend, he told her not exactly or said sort of or explained that it was open, anyway? I don't fully remember what he said happened. And then she propositioned him for a threesome with someone else that night. Which he turned down. And then later maybe she was talking about being horny or something and asked what they could do? He's not super clear on the details. I honestly don't completely understand what happened. I know that I wouldn't proposition someone while they were there with someone else, but maybe that is my thinking differently than she does. And maybe he initiated a lot after the initial proposition. It basically felt rude that she was doing that that night while I was there. Maybe that's just a thing with me. And for some reason, the fact that we barely spoke does make it worse. She'd met me once before, the lack of interaction just made it worse for me. We've (he and I) talked about at length though, I think we're fine around this issue, and there's nothing I haven't told him. Hell, he's reading this. I don't mind it. At the end of the day, it was just making out. It's fine. I just don't want them to go do more things. Even if that's completely on me, I'm not cool with it. I think he respects that and is okay with it for the most part except for feeling like he led her on. Which I'll take any blame for, happily.

And no, I'm definitely waaaaaay more comfortable with it being with someone I know. But I by no means expect that or want that from him. It's just a comfort-level/trust thing, and I can get why someone would be the opposite. I think the guy I'm seeing may be the opposite, actually.

Word on not loving the term "bisexual" by the way.

And I think those incidents totally scream old world thinking. Maybe he's not latently homophobic so much as super awkward/prone to bad taste?

People like to understand others in a way that's comfortable to them, I think.

[allegro]

Evolutionary psychology has been critiqued for basically projecting into a fantasy (the whole hunter/gather narrative) conservative ideas about the nuclear family, which itself is only a century or so old.
This book I read a couple years ago argues that when we were hunter/gatherers we lived in packs, not nuclear family units, and were perhaps polyamorous, mating and bringing up kids in common, as a tribe:
http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dawn-Stray-Modern-Relationships/dp/0061707813/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353532658&sr=8-1&keywords=sex+at+dawn
It's not a perfect book but did contain some interesting ideas.

I wasn't coming from the angle of EP; i was thinking more like our sexuality being linked to our biology and survival.

I'm obsessed with the show "Sisters Wives" even though I know it's pretty sexist one-sided and based on a dopey religious premise; I'm like a deer in the headlights. I want a sister wife.


Edit: I just ordered that book ^.

Edit Edit: I just cancelled that order. I saw this: http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dusk-Lifting-Shiny-Wrapping/dp/1477697284/ref=pd_rhf_ee_s_cp_1

Edit Edit Edit: Now reading "Sex at Dusk" ^

[jessamineny]

playwithfire Here's a piece from FetLife, by Dr_Dexter, that I thought might be helpful/interesting to you. He gave permission to someone to repost it on FB, so I figured it was OK to repost it here. :)

There is quite a bit of attention being paid to Polyamory right now in our community, so I thought I'd approach the subject from a different direction:
What are some positive indicators that you'll likely be SUCCESSFUL in a polyamorous relationship?

This isn't meant to be diagnostic -- IOW, it's not a checklist to go down, thinking, "Oh, I don't have this, I'm doomed in a poly relationship". As a matter of fact, I know someone who functions pretty darned well in a current poly situation, who doesn't by nature possess most of these.
Instead, it's a list of attributes that are likely to indicate that you might function well in one. Possess a lot of them, or a number of them strongly, and you can be fairly confident that if you try poly, you'll have a relatively easy time adjusting to it. Cultivate the ones you can, and you'll find all sorts of thing in life are easier.


Optimistic: Are you optimistic or pessimistic? If you're optimistic, you're more likely to look at new situations and predict that they'll have a positive outcome. You're more likely to see positive points, rather than negative. You're less likely to talk your way into believing that you have a problem, and more likely to talk yourself into seeing solutions.



Self-contained: Are you happy all by yourself, even though your life is enhanced by having others in it? If you are, then your chances of encountering insecurity within a relationship is reduced. If you're already happy independent of the relationship, then the fact that your partner is having sex with someone else isn't going to make you feel abandoned.



Lack of Attachment: This is the Buddhist term for believing that your happiness is attached to external things, rather than yourself. Buddhists believe that attachment is the cause of suffering -- whether this is being miserable because you don't have the latest gadget or the highest salary, being miserable because someone isn't giving you their undivided attention, or being miserable because change is happening.

This concept is directly linked to the Western understanding in psychology that you do not have control over the actions of others -- and that trying to do so will make you miserable -- but that you do have control over yourself and how you react to things.


Lack of "oughta-be"s: Do you sit around thinking, "This situation ought to be this way, or that way"? Pre-determining or post-determining that life or other people's actions were "supposed" to turn out in a particular manner is an excellent way to make yourself miserable, since life rarely conforms to our imaginings. So, if you're not inclined to back-seat coach life, you're more likely to be adaptable. If you're adaptable, you're more likely to find poly easier.



Honest with Yourself: Polyamory requires honesty with yourself. You have to understand your actual needs. You have to admit to yourself when things are bothering you, if you're going to deal with them. If you insist on deceiving yourself, you're almost certain to manage to make yourself and others in a poly relationship miserable.



Honesty and good communication with others: Poly situations are more complicated than most people are used to in vanilla relationships. When you add a third or forth person to a relationship, the need to effectively communicate increases. If jealousy or hurt feelings arise, they'll tend to multiply if simply kicked into the corner. The ability to clearly assure your partner that you are going off to play with or to fuck someone else, but that you will be coming back to resume your "normal" relationship goes a long way toward preventing problems in the first place.

Generally, most people are far more afraid of the unknown than the known. The known may feel "painful", but the unknown is frequently frightening -- and it is considerably harder to comfort a frightened person (especially if they're not admitting it) than it is to sooth one who is in a bit of pain. In poly relationships, it is usually better to err on the side of revealing than concealing. So if you already tend to be blunt, you may be ahead.


Secure and Self-loving: To love others, you have to know that you are worthy of love, and to love yourself. If you feel worthy of love, you will tend to feel secure -- and if you feel secure, you'll know that your poly partner values you and thinks you have qualities that are important to their life, and therefore isn't likely to find someone new so fascinating that they abandon you. Insecurity is a very large component of jealousy: When you feel secure and confident within a relationship, there is usually little reason to feel jealous.



Willingness to Question Assumptions: One of my favorite philosophers was very fond of the phrase, "Check your premises". A premise is "a stated or assumed basis from which reasoning proceeds". IOW, they're the foundational assumptions we use to run our lives. People in general have a terrible habit of questioning everything except their premises.

They'll do all sorts of things in their lives which don't actually harm anyone, but they'll impose truly amazing amounts of guilt on themselves in the process. While they're willing to violate the beliefs installed in their heads when they were too young to think about them, or too young to have defenses, they're often unwilling or unable to wonder how these beliefs can possibly be useful or good, if the only way to be happy is to violate them.
Most people live their lives in chains as flimsy as those holding an elephant in place. Even people in the kink world will leave toxic assumptions and beliefs in place, rather than taking them out, examining them and throwing them away. If you're willing to examine your beliefs and look at them, rather than simply being ruled by them, you're much more likely to be able to make poly work.


Not putting things in boxes: As humans, we're very adept at categorizing. We do it automatically. We react to a stick on the ground as if it were a snake, because we put similar things in the same mental box, because it is a survival adaptation. However, just as with "oughta-be"s above, trying to force poly relationships into pre-conceived notions or understandings isn't necessarily a good thing. Left to themselves, human relationships would form an infinite number of different unique combinations -- but we're conditioned to force them into boxes labeled things like "marriage" with pre-defined attributes. And when they don't fit, we're sure they've "failed".

However, if you consciously avoid trying to "figure out", label, and categorize your relationships with others, and instead simply concentrate on enjoying the good qualities that they possess, you may indeed find that you have something that works quite well, even as it defies easy description to others. Poly relationships are particularly susceptible to this.

[Kid Charlemagne]

I think I have a girlfriend now. More on this developing story later.

[littlemonkey613]

Magtig may disagree with me on this, but I think human beings are hardwired for serial monogamy. The tinges of jealous are biological.

How jealousy manifests itself is different in every culture, as are practices of monogamy and what warrants jealousy. Studying the history of marriage has made me realize how NOT hard wired we are. Also, so much in terms of jealousy is literally taught and romanticized from a young age. Its not hard for me to imagine a world where different values when it comes to relationships are taught and internalized. Also patriarchy and heteronormativity are goliaths that shape our understanding of this stuff so much. Think about it this way, if we were hard wired for monogamy so much effort, law and philosophy would not be dedicated to making rules so that people won't "cheat".

I understand what you mean in terms of wanting to control another person and what they do with their body to make oneself feel more secure and how that can be seen as really natural, but that still leaves the fact that we even fear cheating to begin with, which implies monogamy is something that must be actively and habitually enforced. It's a practice.

That being said I am really against acting upon jealousy and it being seen as a positive thing. I think it is normalized violence so I am not really coming from where everyone else is, I don't think. If there are others on here hollah back at me! I truly believe it is wrong to impose that kind of limit on someone else regardless if it "works" because then I just view it as mutual oppression. (disclaimer: I think monogamy is an entirely different beast than having one sexual partner even for life).

Historically you can literally trace our specific understanding of serial monogamy and how it became normalized. That is why I don't think its good to ever use the hard-wired argument. Especially when violence is at stake, which I see as inherent to jealousy if it is acted upon in a way that imposes on another.

I mean I guess fundamentally I have no problem with what your saying exactly, its just that so many people use the existence of biological components to justify an outcome, or combat those who want to deconstruct a particular cultural aspect.

I don't want to deny the the possibility or existence of a biological component and how this relates to our survival instincts though so maybe this post was useless. lol.

[allegro]

^maybe you should read that book I just linked

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dusk-Lifting-Shiny-Wrapping/dp/1477697284/ref=pd_rhf_ee_s_cp_1?tag=vglnkc5768-20

You took two sentences I wrote and made a bunch of assumptions and leaps as to what I "meant."

[littlemonkey613]

I was addressing your entire post concerning serial monogamy then just expressed what I thought about monogamy in general and why its risky to make the specific claim you were making. Sorry if I overstepped. Also that book looks really interesting.

Anyways I was just trying to point out that serial monogamy (and the specific feelings that come with it) can very well be just as socially constructed as everything else we are talking about.

[allegro]

When I said serial monogamy, it was relative to permanent monogamy or polyandry. The claim I was making was based on biological evolution, anthropology, primatology, etc. "Twinges of jealousy" is not the same as the extreme and unhealthy examples you referenced. Your examples ARE social constructs. So, yes, some part is biological and then you probably have social construct stemming from that. Or not.

Also, I think that list that Jessamine posted ^up there^ could (should?) apply to ANY healthy relationship.

[Dra508]

That being said I am really against acting upon jealousy and it being seen as a positive thing. I think it is normalized violence so I am not really coming from where everyone else is, I don't think. If there are others on here hollah back at me! I truly believe it is wrong to impose that kind of limit on someone else regardless if it "works" because then I just view it as mutual oppression. (disclaimer: I think monogamy is an entirely different beast than having one sexual partner even for life).
.Woah, please go on.

I never considered myself a jealous person, but have recently had some episodes of what I thought were jealousy and am really realizing it's my own insecurity.

Having said that, more then half of Jessmineny's attributes I totally have, but would probably fail poly since my communication skills have much to be desired. I'm told I'm either way too blunt or completely turtle.

[littlemonkey613]

Woah, please go on.

I never considered myself a jealous person, but have recently had some episodes of what I thought were jealousy and am really realizing it's my own insecurity.

Having said that, more then half of Jessmineny's attributes I totally have, but would probably fail poly since my communication skills have much to be desired. I'm told I'm either way too blunt or completely turtle.

Yeah I have the same thing a lot of the time. Then I realized that I was defining my value, my happiness, and how much another person cares for me by what they choose to do with their own body and time when they are not with me or when they just happen to want to connect with other people. Most of the time the feelings are very minor but even in those instances when I have acted upon it, I truly believe I have wronged that other person. Realizing that I have no inherent right to expect to be the "only ________" for someone else has been the most liberating experience.

My communication skills when it comes to sex are really really bad. So I've just been trying to figure things out. However my ideological stance on the subject is totally rooted in how I view relationships from a moral stand point.



To allegro, I guess my point is that those tinges though they are not extreme in comparison to what we consider unhealthy are still something that I consider violent when they are acted upon in a way that tries to limit another individual even minimally. I look around and I see a lot of things that I consider violent which people deem a normal part of any "healthy" relationship which would never be acceptable in any other setting, like a non sexual friendship.

[allegro]

Look, if you are dating someone and that someone says he/she wants to fuck other people but still wants to fuck you, too, your super intellectual side may say yeah sure we're adults I'm not in a box it's cool but when you see her making out with him at a bar, that funny feeling in your stomach? That's a twinge of jealousy. Then you write it off as stupid and you move on. But that tinge will make you wonder if you ever really knew yourself at all.

Because it's not intellectual, it's not mindful, it's not logical, it's gut reaction, it's instinct.

How you react AFTER that is based on a lot of things, including but not limited to your parents, your upbringing, your ego, your insecurities, your religion, your being a psychopath and/or sociopath, etc. etc.

I don't think that anyone said that extreme and constrictive jealousy is a normal part of any healthy relationship.

However, feeling a slight ping of jealousy (particularly within the context of polyamory, which was the topic) doesn't mean you're weird. Or violent.

A woman in the Chicago area recently stabbed her 7-year-old son 100 times and stabbed another neighbor child 50 times because the woman was upset that her husband was "working too much." There ya go.

[Pillfred]

^ Higher brain functions don't always play out the way our emotions do. Take SLC Punk for example, sure they are anarchists etc, but the moment he see's dude fucking "his" woman it's not so groovy. (my shitty two cents) But i do feel that if your good with whatever it is relationship wise go for.

On my end me and the new Lady friend are really hitting it off. Im stoked.

[littlemonkey613]

^^
I made a distinction between the feeling itself and acting on it. From what I have seen most people see no problem with acting on jealousy in regards to another person. They feel they have the right to, and that they should. That's the reason I'm being so vocal about it.

I don't think we disagree.

[allegro]

Sorry, I think "most people" is a huge generalization and exaggeration.

[littlemonkey613]

Fair enough.

[littlemonkey613]

Fair enough. Its definitely dominant enough in my own society where it feels like most people.

[slave2thewage]

Date in three week's time, and I'm considering messaging my old flame from two years ago. Welcome to December.

[MrsMeowMeow]

I'm in a happy relationship for almost 1 1/2 years. But there is one thing that bothers me lately..
So, he is really lazy and I knew that before, not such a big deal for me. I've had bigger issues in past relationships, but it seems that he is so lazy that he is letting himself go, you know, not getting a new haircut, only shaving when its really necessary, not buying new clothes although he desperatly needs them (yeah, there are holes in his shirts) also gaining a lot of weight.
I tried to tell him many times that I want him to take himself more, but I can't force him to go to the barber. He said that he feels uncomfortable with his weight and he doesn't want it to get worse, but except a few times doing sports for 15 min nothing happenend. He's not even trying to eat healthier and less.
And I don't see him investing in new clothes in the near future, I only hear him talking about getting new games on steam and stuff like that.

I really, really love to be together with him, but I don't know what I'm going to do if this gets worse :( I want to be supportive, but I don't know what else I can do other than tell him how I feel and offering him my help.

[slave2thewage]

Sit down and talk to him about him. Simple communication is the best.

I have two guys interested in me, but my old flame has gone back to being quiet. Oh well, onwards and upwards.

[blackholesun]

Simple communication indeed. No dancing around the subject. But he'll definitely have to take some initiative as well.

Been on a few dates recently after my last relationship ended a few months ago. Dates were kinda meh. I just didn't find them interesting. Maybe I'm bad at communication or something but I'm struggling to find someone I'm genuinely interested in.

[Fixer808]

Maybe she has to put in an appearance but wants to spare you the fate of having to interact with her classmates because they're terminally boring?

[Warped_Savant]

Maybe she knows that it's probably the last time she's going a lot of the people at the party and will be quite distracted talking to them so she thinks you'll be bored and that, really, you can see her the next day and do something more romantic (a nice dinner where you get a little dressed up for is always a good idea) instead of going to a high school dance.

That probably sounds more mean than it's supposed to... Just had an unpleasant conversation. But still, take her out somewhere nice a day or two later.... You'll realize in a few years that doing something small on the day of the anniversary (get her flowers or something) is a nice gesture but the bigger things (dinner, date type thing, long walk through the park, etc.) don't need to be on the exact day.

[sentient02970]

I think I kinda sorta went on a date tonight, wtf?

[blackholesun]

How did it go?

[Fixer808]

How did it go?
Less awkward than this, hopefully:
http://bccoastaltransportation.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/viccolision01lg.jpg

[sentient02970]

Haha love that picture! No not at all like that. Strangely comfortable and downright fun. We spent most of it watching a myriad of NFL games at a sports bar while downing beers and nachos. Amazingly, she's as much of a pathetic Chiefs fan as I am. We were more interested in the Dallas game anyway. Perfectly informal. Then I went and did some grocery shopping with her so we got to share a bit of the types of stupid things we buy at grocery and that was the night. By the time I got home I got the follow-on texts from her of how much of a great time she had and how she looks forward to it again soon.

[Dra508]

I think I kinda sorta went on a date tonight, wtf?Way to go bubba!

Some women like to lead, you know. I point this out since doesn't sound like you asked for the date.

On that note: I'm apparently in a long exit relationship. First time I heard that term. Must be another way of saying rebound. Whatever, with the labels.

[sentient02970]

Well I officially asked her but she's the one who sidled up to the bar before all of this for us to first meet. So I made the call to hook up later for drinks and football on the actual "date" later that weekend. Unfortunately she is wicked busy (2 jobs) and I have my daughter every other weekend so follow up has been hard since to schedule but we're working on it.

Sorry about the long exit, gosh. First I've heard that as well. Maybe it should be more like a "to hell with that".

[Conan The Barbarian]

I wish I had a nuke to bomb this zone known as the friend zone. And don't get pissy with me if I don't accept your friendship, I have plenty of those.

I seriously am just gonna give up.

[Dra508]

Sorry about the long exit, gosh. First I've heard that as well. Maybe it should be more like a "to hell with that".
No no, I should have been clearer. It's been labeled an exit relationship by folks outside looking in, not the two of us. Everyone has a fuckin opinion. Bah.

[sentient02970]

Ah ok, well "to hell with those people" idiots. I'm sure I'll get the same.

[aurelius]

The boyfriend and I have now been together for over a year. We're talking marriage. Next month we're planning on having our parents meet. I never thought I'd be in this place, but this relationship is the one thing in my life that doesn't cause me anxiety. I'm so happy and so is he. Yay for honesty and communication. Also, yay for previous therapy. Both of us worked hard to get to places where we could actually be in a healthy relationship with ourselves and each other.

[sentient02970]

Our third night out and second time meeting up to watch football. She's asking why I haven't got off my lazy ass and officially divorced yet. God im so dumb. But she has put a new fire under me to get that shit handled.

[Dra508]

Our third night out and second time meeting up to watch football. She's asking why I haven't got off my lazy ass and officially divorced yet. God im so dumb. But she has put a new fire under me to get that shit handled.

Errr, you're not the only one moving slow. Gonna get through the end of the year and refocus on work and getting this transaction done. No more sitting around.

[sentient02970]

Let's ship each other a bottle of bubbly when we both get those damn things signed and done. Thanks for letting me know, I thought I've been such a heel for dragging mine out. OK, I still feel that way but it feels good to know I'm not the only one.

[Dra508]

Deal. But I like good bubbly. Not that cheap ass cold duck.

[allegro]

Let's ship each other a bottle of bubbly when we both get those damn things signed and done. Thanks for letting me know, I thought I've been such a heel for dragging mine out. OK, I still feel that way but it feels good to know I'm not the only one.
I avoided it for a YEAR.

[sentient02970]

Dumped :( (with the sensitivity of a text message)

[allegro]

you're coming across as not available?

[sentient02970]

Apparently I am, as my extended separation without a divorce was the issue. I even had started in on the paperwork in an effort to preserve this. Oh well.

[allegro]

Continue with the divorce, so that this won't be an issue in the future? Then text her when your divorce is final.

[miss k bee]

Got meself two cubs, and bad one and a good one. This cougar thing aint bad :)

[Jord]

Fuck the friendzone. Fuck it hard.

[Conan The Barbarian]

Fuck the friendzone. Fuck it hard.


That is what I've been saying.

[Dra508]

you're coming across as not available?Dam women you are smart!
@sentient02970 (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=444)
I'm sorry that didn't work out. Call it the world's shortest exit relationship and get that divorce. That is what you want right?

For me, for the most part, I've worked out most of my "why did my marriage fail" issues and am moving on to working on my fear of intimacy issues. I didn't know I was such a head case. I thought I was pretty normal, but really that was just avoidance. I'm devoting the rest of my life to tackling it and relationships (all kinds not just romantic) with honesty and forthrightness. Going to try and avoid "turtling".

[Jord]

That is what I've been saying.

It's been hell this week, a girl I've liked for years has split with her now ex, and wants to be single for a while which I can respect, although I know she's gonna go straight for a friend of mine who she declared her love for once a few months ago. Trouble is I've fallen back into the slippery slope of really liking her again, and knowing that nothing is gonna happen kills me. She keeps wanting to hang out and it's SO friendzone territory, I've had nobody to talk to about this, I want to get over this shit and carry on with life.

[Fixer808]

2013 is looking up for ol' Liz Lemon!

[Minpin]

Fuck the friendzone. Fuck it hard.

That is what I've been saying.

It's been hell this week, a girl I've liked for years has split with her now ex, and wants to be single for a while which I can respect, although I know she's gonna go straight for a friend of mine who she declared her love for once a few months ago. Trouble is I've fallen back into the slippery slope of really liking her again, and knowing that nothing is gonna happen kills me. She keeps wanting to hang out and it's SO friendzone territory, I've had nobody to talk to about this, I want to get over this shit and carry on with life.

Without trying to be a massive arsehole, you guys need to stop lamenting the 'friend zoned' status and really step back and adjust your thinking. Even the phrase friend zoned is gross. Everybody can sympathise with unrequited feelings, how you deal with it makes the world of difference.


SHE'S NOT PUTTING YOU IN THE 'FRIEND ZONE', YOU ARE!!!


1: have feelings for a woman that aren't reciprocated


2: a) remain friends - this does not mean be friends with the hope that she eventually falls for you, be honest with yourself, it means friends. If you can't then


b) sever ties - seems harsh, but infinitely better for both of you than


c) friend zone yourself - spiral into bitterness, join okcupid as a 'nice guy', and end up on huffpost being laughed at by aggroculture...

P.s. I'd originally written part of this in the random stupidity thread, it was unintentionally very fucking rude for which I'm sorry (no excuse but it's 5am, really hot and I've been drinking). Didn't mean to equate you with those weirdos. I don't mean to sound condescending either, objectively it's easy to reason this shit out, in your situation emotions can cloud it out...

[miss k bee]

Dating sucks!

[Aladdinsanity]

Honestly, it's just as shitty being the person who puts you in the friend zone if it's making you upset. You'll come across as lacking backbone towards them and they'll feel as though they're walking on eggshells when interacting with you (this is simply what I've observed from friends who've been in said situation repeatedly). Pretty terrible for your self-esteem.

[Magtig]

Friend zone guys are frequently creeps with hidden agendas and entitlement issues, don't let yourself become one of them. Be a man, take charge, and ask her out on a date. If she has no interest move on, because the other option -disingenuously pretending to be her friend- is bollocks.

[orestes]

Seriously, fuck "nice guy" syndrome. There's more to a relationship than getting your dick wet.

[icklekitty]

Friend zone guys are frequently creeps with hidden agendas and entitlement issues, don't let yourself become one of them. Be a man, take charge, and ask her out on a date. If she has no interest move on, because the other option -disingenuously pretending to be her friend- is bollocks.

It's a shame Nice Guys of OKC got taken down

http://25.media.tumblr.com/3606ee7e02cd1b61f6848488813d05da/tumblr_mg6qlzsJaS1rlztmqo1_500.png

[Madmya]

It's a horrible thing. For most of the twenties age bracket of guys we've heard all of our lives that being nice to women is of utmost importance, and while it's true it's also negated our balls and made us less attractive.

[Magtig]

Guys often have this weird notion that being a 'nice guy' means always agreeing with everything a woman says. It's more 'kowtowing your way into her pants' and less 'I am a valuable person and so are you, let's know each other (possibly in the biblical sense if things go well).' Problem is, almost no one likes hangers on/starfuckers/suckups/yesmen/etc. It's okay to be an actual nice guy, but that doesn't include being a wet noodle whose personality goes out the door the second an attractive woman shows up.

[icklekitty]

THANK YOU.

There's a million miles of difference between "Hey, I'm going about my life being a decent human. Oh, you want to fuck me? Cool!" and "Look, I've been nice to you for the whole of an hour. I pretended I liked that band and tried to find something to say about that thing you're into. Now I'm owed a fuck".



There's a swingers club that W/w/we sometimes go to to play with other guys. They're pretty desperate and crap at sex, so it's never awesome but it passes the time and raises my strange count. Last night we went with a different agenda. Cue Him surrounded by three girls; on one His lap, one at His balls, one on His lips, right in the middle of the public area with every other male in there looking insanely jealous. Oh, I'm sorry, 30 year old dude in a polo shirt, jeans and a trainers. I appear not to be falling at your feet and instead going for the besuited, self-confident, pot-bellied and balding Man in His mid-50s I arrived with. I'm sure that later when you hover over me with puppy eyes for an hour and touch my bum as if it were a snowflake WITHOUT ASKING I'll totally change my mind and be yours.

I really like flaunting my fearless love in front of insecure fucktards.

[DVYDRNS]

My wife says one reason she fell in love with me is because I'm the only guy who called her out on her BS.

Ha. Not sure how I feel about that. But we're gonna be married 5 years in feb. so I guess it's working out so far! :)

On top of that. I'm the only guy that didn't change his opinion based on what she wanted.

Guys, having balls works when you're looking for a significant other.

[Fixer808]

Spent last night at a restaurant and then karaoke with a very sexy girl and even though we didn't end up having sex we still spent the night wrapped up in each other, it was extremely nice. Hoping to see her again soon.

[Dra508]

My wife says one reason she fell in love with me is because I'm the only guy who called her out on her BS.

Ha. Not sure how I feel about that. But we're gonna be married 5 years in feb. so I guess it's working out so far! :)

On top of that. I'm the only guy that didn't change his opinion based on what she wanted.

Guys, having balls works when you're looking for a significant other.
THIS. I ran over my X regularly because I always did and he didn't call me out. I really didn't realize it until it was way too late.

It's a massive turn on for me for the man, to not put up with my BS.

[Jord]

Since managed to get over the shit, I'm trying a new mindset towards the whole relationship thing this year, and will be throwing myself out there, I need to get my self confidence up big time.

[Kid Charlemagne]

Feeling like shit right now. So I was dating this girl about two months ago and a few weeks ago she told me we shouldn't sate, so already I feel like shit because this is two winters in a row where I've been dumped on my ass. She wanted to be friends though and naturally I'm a weak guy who thinks something can still happen, so we keep hanging out and after work one night her and I hang out with one of my coworkers who needed a ride home. So we're there and they're talking for almost two hours while I'm sitting like a dumbass watching TV.

The next day at work, he tells one of my coworkers about how he had no interest in her and blah blah blah so I stop getting jealous. I pick him up today and he asks me about her and I tell him I haven't spoken to her much lately. He then goes on to tell me that she gave him her number and they've been texting and how he enjoyed talking to her and wants to sleep with her (unaware that I still have feelings for her) and hang out with her more often (they saw each other this past weekend apparently). It probably shouldn't bother me as much as it does, but I can't help but feel angry and depressed and almost a little betrayed. I work with this guy and he's cool, now, I'm just disoriented and I know she'll get upset if she knows I know they're up to something.

[Fixer808]

Damn, dude, that's a rough one, sorry to hear.

[the duder]

My girlfraaand is coming up (again) to visit for Valentine's Day!!

As stoked as I am to see her again, I feel bad, because I haven't been able to fly to Orlando to visit her. She told me "your schedule is too crazy. Come visit when you have time! Don't worry about it!" I'm super stoked that my schedule will be WIIIDE open in April (her birthday is the 28th) and May, so I'm hoping to head down to Orlando then. Also, I also offered to pay for her flight up this time to "make up for it". Again, she said "make up for what?!"

I have the best girlfriend ever.

[pigpen]

I know this is my fault...
I've gone back and forth with this girl since we were in highschool.. We never actually made it to the point where we made anything official, just random hookups, and whatnot.
This is completely my fault, in that everytime the issue was brought up, I shied away from it to the point of her losing interest and then gaining it only to yet again lose it..
So we're back at that point where were trying to figure things out, and for whatever reason, my anxiety about going forward with her and establishing a relationship between us is totally gone. Because I flip flopped on that for sooo long though, she's not really as enthusiastic about it.
FML I SUCK!!!

[Space Suicide]

I'm falling hard for a girl I've been talking to for almost 7 months. It's rather exciting.

[Fixer808]

Things are lookin' up for ol' Liz Lemon! :D

[johnbron]

I have a date this Sunday night. She's absolutely gorgeous and seems to be quite nice. I haven't done this sort of thing in a very long time. Last relationship ended in early 2007 (LOLWUT!). I'm feeling pretty confident, buy MY GOD this is scary. So far, with the text communications and a few very brief meetings, things are going very very well. Meow, bitches!

[NotoriousTIMP]

I have a date this Sunday night. She's absolutely gorgeous and seems to be quite nice. I haven't done this sort of thing in a very long time. Last relationship ended in early 2007 (LOLWUT!). I'm feeling pretty confident, buy MY GOD this is scary. So far, with the text communications and a few very brief meetings, things are going very very well. Meow, bitches!

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22984904.jpg


Luv you buddy! :)

[icklekitty]

This is the first relationship I've been in where I haven't bailed when things got tough. I'M GROWING UP!


Also, finding a local boyfriend is proving to be a task and a half. London boys no talk so good.

[Dra508]

I know this is my fault...
I've gone back and forth with this girl since we were in highschool.. We never actually made it to the point where we made anything official, just random hookups, and whatnot.
This is completely my fault, in that everytime the issue was brought up, I shied away from it to the point of her losing interest and then gaining it only to yet again lose it..
So we're back at that point where were trying to figure things out, and for whatever reason, my anxiety about going forward with her and establishing a relationship between us is totally gone. Because I flip flopped on that for sooo long though, she's not really as enthusiastic about it.
FML I SUCK!!!

If its not there, don't feel bad for not forcing it. You'll just hate yourself more trying to wiggle out of it because you are just not happy. Oh wait, that's me. Make sure you are really happy people! Dopamine, oxytocin, all that stuff needs to be pumping!

[pigpen]

I have a tendency of getting spooked by and running away from girls for some reason.. For a minute I thought I may be gay, but I know that's not the case, I'm far too interested in women..
What I started thinking was that maybe I'm a little insecure, I'm trying to push past that, and really put myself out there for once though..
I know i'm into this girl, I have been since I was in HS, I think part of me is just really afraid of getting hurt.. But I can't really let that stop me from being with someone, because THAT, ending up totally alone, would probably be way worse... Plus, being alone offers no fucking/blowjobs, and that's not cool!!!

[Piko]

Emotional Unavailability. Think i've learned a hard lesson in that last night. Fooled around with a friend, who i've been flirting with, etc. She decides to come to place at like 2am. I'm all for it. And by the time she gets there, i'm kinda in shutdown mode. It wasn't fulfilling. It wasn't her fault. And this isn't the first time it's happened where i'm totally into a girl, and then bam, from out of nowhere, I instantly lose interest. It's happened plenty. I don't really date women. I'm pretty iffy about that whole thing these days. I'm the guy who has no problem spending time with people. But, every now and then i'm going to want my alone time, which is probably horrible. I just find something fulfilling (alot...) of coming home from work (which I hate), putting on a video game or movie and relax, alone.

I'm still pretty whatever about relationships. But at the same time, it kinda sucks. A few years ago, I was never in this position. It's a hole that I dug for myself (willingly), and have no idea on how to get out, or whether or not I even want to get out. It sucks.

[halloween]

It really is an ego booster to have been told I have changed (in the good way) someone's ideas about romance. That it's possible in an equal give and take type of way and not just one person giving all the time. Sigh. I asked him if he regretted being with me knowing I was going to leave eventually (and that eventually is coming in two weeks, where I'll be off to the other side of the country for ten months...) and it was a relief to know he didn't regret anything and neither did I. The depression will suck but we both know that the time spent together was worth it.

Piko, if you know that alone time is something important for you, make sure that whoever you end up dating is respectful of that. Don't feel that you have to be "there" 100% of the time. One of the things I've learned this year being with this person I just mentioned, was that it was completely possible to have personal time while even in the same room.

[playwithfire]

@jessamineny (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=342) : I never thanked you for your post, but seriously, cheers. That's great and it deserves another read on my part.

Anyway, it's us, not polyamory. I didn't see any point to keeping the exclusive thing since his classes are starting back up and who knows how often we'll manage to see each other.

Also, I've realized that a lot of what contributes to me feeling insecure about our relationship probably isn't going to change, so I've kinda given up.

I don't really know what to do about it, but I just don't feel like trying for something I'm not going to get from him and that I don't think he wants.

It doesn't mean I don't care about him or that I want to stop seeing him. I don't know what to do about some of it, but for the time being, we're just kinda sucking at keeping in touch since neither of us is really willing to put in the effort (and by that I probably mostly mean that I've stopped trying in some ways... he's never been great at it) and seeing each other when we can... during which things are fine.

In other news, there's a pretty cute guy I know and that may go somewhere or may not. I don't feel like forcing things and he's a fun guy to chill with regardless.

[slave2thewage]

I accidentally logged into my old Tumblr and discovered the new URL for my summer '10 "fling/quasi-relationship/whatever the fuck it was"'s account. That's oddly opened up some wounds, even though we do talk every now and then and things are civil/good. I guess he's "the one that got away" to my mind.

Oh, and I realised that I really wasn't happy in my last relationship at all and just wanted someone to be there. Ol' Liz Lemon will not make that mistake again!

[johnbron]

The date finally happened yesterday and it went very well. We wound up discussing getting together for another one only moments after it ended. Who knows what, if anything will happen but at this point, but I feel pretty ready to try dating again. It's a nice feeling to know she lives only a few minutes away too. I wound up very nervous walking into the restaurant but within about a minute, things were off to a good start and we had some great conversation.

At the very least, I have a new local friend and concert buddy. I've been needing a concert buddy for ages and I'm pretty okay with it being a beautiful woman that's interested in me. *sigh* I'm going to be crushing pretty fucking hard until further notice. <3

Also, she's got an incredible ass. She's prefect all over, but her ass. Oh god that ass.

[megalomaniac3]

I've been with my girlfriend for nearly three years now. She's my next door neighbour of all people.

Strangest of circumstances I know. But we see eye to eye on a lot of things, and have a lot in common. We share the same taste in music and both have a love of fitness (she's a dancer) which is great. To find someone who shares the same taste in music is very rare, and to find her next door of all places is strange. The funny thing is that she had lived next door for just over a year before we even met each other. I had seen her twice in all of this time, firstly when I went for a run one afternoon, she was hanging here clothes out on the line. Secondly, when I was taking in the bins, she was getting lemons from her lemon tree. But we never talked, just smiled and went our different ways.

Compared to my first relationship, it's almost like being in a dream (I resent my ex; I hope she never finds happiness, she doesn't deserve to be happy). We never fight, and if there is any tension, we always talk it out. We both believe that we won't solve any problems if we give each other the 'silent treatment'. We're both in our last year of university now, and plan to travel once we've finished. We don't know where yet, but it will be awesome.

[johnbron]

While showering earlier, I realized how much I wanted to tell this woman that I wanted her. So I did via text. It went well. Thank fuck.

[icklekitty]

^Good move. Instincts are always good and being honest is always better than pussyfooting and playing games.

JoBro starts as he means to go on!

[Dra508]

While showering earlier, I realized how much I wanted to tell this woman that I wanted her. So I did via text. It went well. Thank fuck.You didn't text WHILE you were in the shower?


My long distance relationship is still working. For now, the space is good.

[johnbron]

You didn't text WHILE you were in the shower?

Heh. I might have if the phone had been in the bathroom. :)

She and I are going out again this Friday. Probably a movie and some drinks and dinner. I really hope this continues to work out. I really want a woman in my life again. So many things about a relationship that I miss.

[slave2thewage]

I am legitimately thinking of spending Valentine's by giving steak to my cat and watching 500 Days of Summer.

[jessamineny]

I just got invited to join Senior FriendFinder. Excuse me while I crawl into bed for a week.