Trump 2017: Year Zero

[theimage13]

I have a few relatives who voted for him. They accept everything he says as either truth or harmless "everyone lies" type of stuff. But sometimes - if they're really feeling adventurous - they'll hear out an opposing view and maybe even do some research on it after the fact. Afterwards though, it's still "I'd still rather have him than Hillary".

[Jinsai]

I have a few relatives who voted for him. They accept everything he says as either truth or harmless "everyone lies" type of stuff. But sometimes - if they're really feeling adventurous - they'll hear out an opposing view and maybe even do some research on it after the fact. Afterwards though, it's still "I'd still rather have him than Hillary".

And those people will never change their minds, because if they get the sneaking suspicion they might have been wrong all along, they have that default "better than Hillary" riposte.

There's those people, and then there's people like this guy. I screen capped his post for posterity

https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16603096_10158196747860564_1514694209101069425_n.j pg?oh=c2eee2b650e34b552dc2f4f93c4dfa11&oe=59003491

The next time someone tries to lecture you on "see, you STILL don't understand why Trump won do you?! Let me explain this to you..." feel free to just respond with that image, and assure them that you're well aware of why Trump won.

[Sutekh]

when he is up there on tv outright lying...or just making empty grandiose statements...do his supporters just take it in, or do they stop and think "hold up. wait. what???".
the only trump supporter i know, personally, would definitely fall into the "take it in" and cheer the empty grandiose statement category.
anyone know any trump supporters that are at the "wtf???" stage?
the supporter i know is someone who loves, what they perceive as, his "strong, bold, straight" talk (yes, equal parts laughable and gutting)...so when he makes statements like "make america great again" this person doesn't have any need for an actual break down of what "great" is, and how that "great" is going to be achieved. the statement is the end of the line for this person.
i am asking because this is the only true trump supporter i know, and wondered if this holds true with trump supporters y'all know personally.
thanks.

I have yet to see any trump supporter - any - offer any criticism of him, his performance or his cabinet. And there are plenty of non partisan criticisms to be made.

I think they just see what they want to see, it's tied in with tribalism and to attack him would be to have a pop at their own identities.

[Louie_Cypher]

you know how you know your admin is fucked when you invited to work in the white house and you reply "I think I'll stick it out here in the private sector"
-louie

[allegro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_eJgHLI5e4&feature=youtu.be

[onthewall2983]

And those people will never change their minds, because if they get the sneaking suspicion they might have been wrong all along, they have that default "better than Hillary" riposte.

There's those people, and then there's people like this guy. I screen capped his post for posterity

https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16603096_10158196747860564_1514694209101069425_n.j pg?oh=c2eee2b650e34b552dc2f4f93c4dfa11&oe=59003491

The next time someone tries to lecture you on "see, you STILL don't understand why Trump won do you?! Let me explain this to you..." feel free to just respond with that image, and assure them that you're well aware of why Trump won.

"Liberals killed the KKK leader" isn't a thing now is it? The guy's wife and step-son have been arrested already.

[Jinsai]

"Liberals killed the KKK leader" isn't a thing now is it? The guy's wife and step-son have been arrested already.

Try telling that to Rusty...

[onthewall2983]

Who the hell is he?

[Jinsai]

Who the hell is he?

Some asshole on the internet. When the story about the KKK leader being killed was trending, his insightful commentary popped up.

Looking at his feed is kind of fascinating... I was thinking earlier that he sounds like a fictional comic sidekick invented by Larry the Cable Guy... but you can't make people like this up.

[Mantra]

Greenwald: Empowering the "Deep State" to Undermine Trump is Prescription for Destroying Democracy
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/2/16/greenwald_empowering_the_deep_state_to
I would never describe myself as someone who's rooting for the deep state. In fact, like most people who have any ounce of respect for democracy, I've always felt pretty terrified of the U.S. intelligence organizations and the brutal, unaccountable power they wield. Their primary influence throughout history has been to subvert democracy around the world any time the mood strikes them. But I have to admit...I take a certain pleasure in watching them devour one of their own.

No one has done more to "empower" the deep state than Republicans. That party has built their entire brand around fear-mongering propaganda, and that has in turn been used as justification for building up the monstrous U.S. intelligence apparatus. Whether it was red scare bullshit or xenophobia against Islam, Republicans have always been 100% a-okay with watching the CIA and NSA undermine democracy around the world and commit any number of horrendous crimes against humanity. So there's a sweet, dark irony to this moment. They helped build this fucking monster for decades, but NOW all of a sudden they care about respecting democracy and holding the deep state accountable? Fuck them. You reap what you sow. Political writers on the left have been critical of the deep state for years, and now all of the sudden I'm reading these morons on r/the_Donald acting so concerned about it, as if they would have EVER cared about this issue if it were anyone else. They cheered when their daddy was talking about "bringing back waterboarding and worse," but now they're so worried about reigning in the creepy power of the CIA? lol, gimme a break.

So I'm not enjoying this because I think for one second that the intelligence community are a bunch of heroes. They're scum of the earth, as far as I'm concerned. I'm enjoying this because it's fascinating to watch one evil entity turning against another evil entity.

[Jinsai]

This sums up the last several months for me though. Dems and Repubs are having to eat the consequences of their partisan blindness toward expanding govt power and infringing on rights.

This is the point kleiner352 was making that you dismissed though... If the libertarians ever had a REAL shot at the highest office, they would become part of one side versus the other. They aren't, so the sideline sniping is a little wearisome. When it comes down to who holds power, it's always a struggle between two parties, and partisan affiliation, be it imagined or projected or whatever, is inevitable in that real-world situation.

For now, the libertarians enjoy the "fuck you all!" stance.

[implanted_microchip]

It's not just the sideline sniping, but it's the smug and utterly holier-than-thou cunty presence that comes with it that is so goddamned exhausting to read and try and mine the actual statements of merit out of.

And oh, yeah, sure; Rand Paul was clearly standing for LIBERTY when he voted yes on Betsy DeVos for Secretary of Education, a woman who bought her way into the federal government. Nothing says liberty to me like abolishing public schools and disenfranchising the rights of disabled children unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong state where their rights aren't protected.

Get the fuck over yourself and your self-adoring ideology. No one is impressed but you. You're not some "moral higher being," you're an asshole condescendinfg to everyone on the internet while doing utterly nothing to help anybody in an era of authoriarian propaganda. But then again I'm an asshole arguing with that asshole so I guess I'm the bigger loser here.

[Jinsai]

Anything is possible. But even the libertarian leaning politicians in power have been pretty immune to this. They have consistently held up liberty and slammed both parties who go against it. (Obviously, only within the realm of the areas the lean libertarian). A focus on liberty is a different type of politics than the heavily partisan crap that comes out of the always morphing (for the vote and money) Repubs and Dems.

Even the libertarians are split on whether or not to tell Gary Johnson to go fuck himself for being completely unqualified for the presidency... Come on. You have to admit that you enjoy not having to eat crow while you lord over people who do.

[Louie_Cypher]

that CNN conference was so full of bullshit I thought I was I in Modesto again, with the vote no one likes you it's not a fine tuned machine it's a pinto
-louie

[hellospaceboy]

And oh, yeah, sure; Rand Paul was clearly standing for LIBERTY when he voted yes on Betsy DeVos for Secretary of Education,
Oh, and don't forget his recent "makes no sense for a Republican to investigate a fellow Republican" stance on justice and liberty. I mean, fuck you, Rand, yes, it would make perfect sense to investigate, because you should put your fuckin' country first!

I might be naive, but I was actually shocked when this came out. I always liked the Libertarian ideals, as a liberal I think it overlaps a great deal when it comes to personal liberties and allowing our citizens to pursuit their happiness. But the reality is, the few schmucks who represent Libertarians within the Republican party are just the same as any other Republican.

[Louie_Cypher]

why is it whenever he speaks I hear the lyric's to tool's swamp
-louie

[Jinsai]

waaaah my progressive ideals don't match THEREFORE ITS NOT LIBERTY

lol ok

What the fuck? The topic there was the appointment and approval of Betsy DeVos. You're going to need to do more than mockingly condescend to someone if you're going to actually imply that there was a single good reason to approve of her appointment.

[joplinpicasso]

What the fuck? The topic there was the appointment and approval of Betsy DeVos. You're going to need to do more than mockingly condescend to someone if you're going to actually imply that there was a single good reason to approve of her appointment.

Yeah, but come on, that wouldn't be edgy enough.

[Khrz]

"Go fuck yourself" is "Free love".

[implanted_microchip]

By just about all methods of measurement, if you allow individuals MORE control over their lives (like where and how they send their kids to school) that is the definition of MORE liberty.


Okay motherfucker, I can guarantee you that the majority of this board would have never been able to go to any school at all if public education did not exist. You sound like Ted Cruz talking about health care. You clearly do not feel that something as basic as an education is a guaranteed right, otherwise you'd see the insanity in this bullshit. Utterly NOBODY has ever said that public education is perfect, but that doesn't mean we'd be better off with absolutely nothing at all for those who can't afford a private one.

If you would like to send your child to a private school, and you have the money and the means to afford it, NO ONE IS SAYING THAT YOU CAN'T DO THAT. What you're suggesting is to strip away options for those who couldn't afford it -- which, gee, sounds a lot like removing choice, huh? And if you're going to say "It should be up to the states!!!" then please go look at what Louisiana has done and tell me that that's fair to kids across the country to leave it up to total geographical chance as to whether or not they get the same opportunities somebody else in the country does.

[sick among the pure]

This just confirms my original reply about you having no care or understanding of liberty.

Also, have you ever heard of vouchers? Or maybe any of the other routes of handing this?

What did everyone do before 1980? The Department of Education hasn't been around very long and you act like public schools would just vanish without it. You don't even seem to know what the DoE actually does.

As the son of a teacher, I have to say, you are a complete fuckwit.

[allegro]

The vouchers don't pay for 100% of tuition and it leaves parents having to make up the difference. And MANY parents can't do that.

Rand Paul is a Marie Antoinette. He knows NOTHING about the poor or middle class.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/knowledge-bank/2015/08/31/how-school-choice-could-disadvantage-low-income-students?context=amp

I think choice is important, but some kind of funding must come from the Feds. It's more important now than in 1980 (much more poverty now).

[allegro]

There are many proposals for how to change things. Some involve vouchers that DO cover enough.


Why does it HAVE to come from feds? Why not state?

It already DOES come from the State to a certain extent, but look at Chicago, for instance. Chicago is fucking broke, it always HAS been broke with pension debts and shit, there are a SHIT TON of kids in Chicago with parents who could never afford to pay for school, the public schools in many of these neighborhoods are for shit, the CPS system is for shit, no matter how many people try to make excuses for it, and if it wasn't for FED money, it'd be even worse.

And the OTHER cities in the State are already paying a lot of money in property taxes to pay for students in their own district, but Chicago keeps getting more and more money from the State for its school debt, which means WE ARE ALL PAYING FOR CITY OF CHICAGO SCHOOL CHILDREN and I'm already paying 85% of my property tax bill to schools in MY OWN CITY. So my property taxes keep going up and up, the sales taxes keep going up and up, due to each CITY controlling its own education budget (not the State) and the CPS completely mismanaging its system and paying people at the top in the Union $300,000 per year just to fight for more tax dollars.

States don't really control city public school spending; SCHOOL DISTRICTS do that. And the rich school districts like New Trier here in Illinois have a majority of kids who graduate and go on to Ivy League colleges. And poverty areas have bigger dropout rates and kids have educations that are barely above the minimum and if they don't succeed, they get no Fed money. And teaching kids isn't ONLY about teachers, it's about parental involvement, etc. And there is a huge disconnect between schools and parents in a lot of these areas, I've talked with teachers and school administrators who say "well, we sent home a NOTE" (telling the parents that Jimmy wasn't doing well in school or needed $300 for the lunch program or could apply for assistance) etc. A NOTE? Does your kid ever have to be in charge of delivering a NOTE? Most kids can't figure out how to pick out their clothes each day and would forget to put on their pants, but they have to be in charge of a "note." And I asked, "did anybody call the parents at home?" Oh, no we don't do that. So when these students perhaps end up in community college with my friend the professor, she says omg it's amazing how most of these kids even graduated; the reading level is sub-par, everything is sub-par, Asian countries are KICKING OUR ASSES with education, our system sucks. And it's not the teachers' fault, it's the whole fucking system, and the DofE was created to PREVENT that, to have a standard of excellence, so that kids in Louisiana aren't learning solely about Adam, Eve, a fucking Ark that never really existed, and that evolution is Teh Evil. The DofE needs to be run by somebody who KNOWS the public school system, provides head start programs, provides additional assistance to kids in poor or middle areas, etc.

My Psych professor was involved with a group called MATT: Michigan Association for the Academically Talented. And I'll never forget his words:

"There is nothing more undemocratic than a democratic education system."

When your PROPERTY TAXES dictate whether or not your kid is gonna get a shit education, that's just not acceptable in this country.

And it's up to a NATION to fix that, not school districts, teachers' unions, state budgets, etc.

The Dems and Republicans have been fighting over a state budget in Illinois for almost TWO FUCKING YEARS. Which means that NO state money is going toward schools, NO state money is going toward college grants, NO state money is going toward special ed programs, NO state money is going toward caregivers for disabled kids, NO state money is going toward any of this stuff. And the kids are suffering while politicians in Springfield argue over shit that has nothing to do with them; the kids have to continue on, they can't sit and wait for years and years for the state to get its shit together.

Gang members in Chicago are a direct result of the lack of education, the lack of tech school funding, the lack of direction in this State.

[sick among the pure]

love it.
We go from "libertarians would get corrupted as soon as they got power" ... to being unable to back that up and instead choosing "but my federal department of education!" and being unable to address any points with anything beyond "lol ur dumb"

**progressives**

For one, lumping everyone in this topic who points out your continual bullshit as "progressives" is only taking what credibility you otherwise would have had and throwing it out the window into a pile of meme-loving pseudo-intellectual fucks. That aside, you've proven time and again there is no point in engaging your "points" beyond the language you understand, hence the "you're a complete fuckwit". If you, at any point in the last almost year's worth of political discussion on these forums, had ever actually taken to a discussion of topics, that would be different. But as I've had to explain before, coming in here and simply facepalming the shit too stupid to waste my time trying to discuss is a very valid response. You don't like it? Then don't be a complete fuckwit, and you won't get called on it at every turn.

You want the population of this country to be even less educated? Gut public schools even more than they already have been.

I would really appreciate if the people who run this country and work side by side with me daily are fucking educated.

[allegro]

Bravo, John McCain (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/17/john-mccain-just-systematically-dismantled-donald-trumps-entire-worldview/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.7dccf2d763b8). Keep at it.

[Mantra]

By just about all methods of measurement, if you allow individuals MORE control over their lives (like where and how they send their kids to school) that is the definition of MORE liberty.

I work in higher ed, and every day I work with students who come from public schools, private schools, charter schools, home school, etc.

And I gotta be honest, I'm not particularly blown away with what I've seen from most private school kids. The way people talk about private school, you'd expect these kids to be really advanced and brilliant, but they're mostly not. Once in a great while, I encounter someone who lives up to that stereotype. But by and large, most of them are indistinguishable from our public school kids, at least in terms of their level of intellect. And you'd be shocked how often I work with private school kids who are dumber than shit. It's a normal, regular thing.

On Monday, I encountered this 19 year old guy who went to a local private school, a school that costs around $25,000 a year. He can barely compose a sentence. He struggles with basic punctuation. And it's not like he has a disability. He's a perfectly capable guy, but he got a garbage education. I don't know if it was always like this, but I see this type of thing more and more these days. What I've learned is that a lot of these private schools are not willing to push their kids, because after all, private schools are a business first and foremost. If they're too hard on the students or if they upset the parents, they risk losing a customer. That expensive tuition comes with strings attached. When parents fork over 25 grand a year, they don't want to see their kid getting an F. People complain about grade inflation, but nowhere has worse grade inflation than in private education. I see kids all the time who got straight As in their private high school, and yet they're barely literate.

So in my opinion, a whole bunch of these private schools are basically just expensive degree mills. They're not paying for education in the true sense of the word; they're paying for the diploma. For me, these experiences have demolished any argument in defense of private schools, and I've begun to feel that Finland has the right idea in completely banning private education all together. The argument behind private education is that parents should have the right to give their kid a higher quality of education, but the truth is that private education has nothing to do with QUALITY of education and everything to do with CLASS and CULTURE. The kid I worked with on Monday is every bit as under-prepared as any kid from the inner city, but he's been socialized very differently. And that's really what it's all about for these families. It's a form of racial, political and cultural segregation disguised as a preference for "quality." It's the educational equivalent of gated communities.

We already live in a society that's becoming increasingly fragmented and polarized, and widespread privatization of schools would only make things worse in that regard. It's a form of regressive tribalism. "My faction verses your faction, I'm gonna raise my kids far away from you." It's not the right path.

[theimage13]

When your PROPERTY TAXES dictate whether or not your kid is gonna get a shit education, that's just not acceptable in this country.


Bingo. Where I grew up, people bought their houses based solely on where they wanted their kids to go to school. Our city school district is absolute shit. Everyone is grossly underpaid, resources are desperately lacking, and last I checked, the graduation rate was below 60%.

You could buy a house at the very edge of one particular suburb...say a smallish, maybe 1,200 square foot place, with hardly any yard, and pay over $6k a year in taxes. Or you could move literally the next street over, buy a house twice the size with a nice little plot of land for less money, AND your tax bill would be under $2k a year. Except now your kid has just gone from one of the highest rated school districts in the state to a crumbling building where there are cops parked outside all day long to handle fights.

So at home, the poorest families receive the worst education, making it harder for them to get better jobs, making it harder for them to get out of poverty, making it harder for the next generation to get a better education, and so it repeats again and again.

[Louie_Cypher]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM-WpZ0ZO4Y
-louie

[implanted_microchip]

Worth noting that a lot of private schools are also highly religious, and while I have many friends that attended faith-based private schools and came out pretty fine, a lot of those institutions have extremely poor science curricula and in general filtered all history that they could through their set of beliefs. Now it's easy to say, "If that's what their parent wants then it's their choice! L1b3rty b1tch!" but here's the thing -- there are a lot of regions where that's it as far as private education goes. It is not the magical, flawless fix that people like to pretend it is, and it opens up its own whole host of problems.

Also keep in mind we're all now arguing with the same guy who down-talked literally all of us for suggesting that Russia might have been involved in the DNC leaks, acting like we were all total fucking idiots for thinking that it could have happened and arguing with us every step of the way, only for him to be proven completely and utterly wrong about it and yet not take a single moment to show the smallest sense of humility around it, instead adopting Trump's attitude of "But why should it matter?!?????" You're not going to get a conversation out of him that doesn't involve him being a smug and self-inflated cuntballoon.

While we were all trying to explain to someone why federally-funded public ed. is important in a country where states like Alabama exist, there was a leak from the White House that suggested an attempt to mobilize the National Guard to round up undocumented immigrants in this nation:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/02/17/trump-considers-mobilizing-national-guard-troops-round-unauthorized-immigrants/3gm95mDZrZhnks6aGPYKNJ/story.html

I'm of the opinion that they might be intentionally writing fake memos in an attempt to nail down who is leaking the info from the White House, but even if this is a totally bullshit thing made for that purpose, it still reveals a whole hell of a lot about how poorly this admin. is functioning.

[Jinsai]

Worth noting that a lot of private schools are also highly religious, and while I have many friends that attended faith-based private schools and came out pretty fine, a lot of those institutions have extremely poor science curricula and in general filtered all history that they could through their set of beliefs.

Yep... I went to private religious grade and high school. High school was even stupider because it was one of those single-sex institutions... I think my education was, for the most part, pretty decent. That doesn't mean that I didn't have to go to religion classes, and go through an incredibly weird sex-ed class that was euphemistically titled "Theology 2."

Nothing will turn you into an atheist faster than being a teen sitting in a room full of guys, listening to a priest uncomfortably tackle the topic of masturbation, and try to frame the whole thing as an issue related to religious morality.
/shudder

edit: lol, Trump wants to hear from YOU https://gop.com/mainstream-media-accountability-survey/

[Louie_Cypher]

it all goes back to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology
-louie

[Jinsai]

it all goes back to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology
-louie

Some day...
some day...
some day...
Dominion
Some say prayers I say mine...

A lighthouse in the middle of Prussia
A white house in a red square...

Mother Russia
Mother Russia
Mother Russia rain down, down, down

[marodi]

edit: lol, Trump wants to hear from YOU https://gop.com/mainstream-media-accountability-survey/

Well, he did hear from me. By the way, I now live in Stoneham, Oxford County, Maine.

[theimage13]

edit: lol, Trump wants to hear from YOU https://gop.com/mainstream-media-accountability-survey/

This survey needs to go viral, so it can get slammed by responses from people who don't believe that CNN, WSJ, etc are "fake news" and the site will be forced to just go "erm...uh...we never tallied the results".

[Khrz]

Jesus, that level of butthurt, coming from such institutions, it's embarrassing

[Deepvoid]

I wouldn't be surprised if John Bolton ends up replacing Flynn.

[Jinsai]

I wouldn't be surprised if John Bolton ends up replacing Flynn.


Or Michael Bolton, at this point... can't have anyone who is actually qualified heading any of these appointments...

[allegro]

@Mantra (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=925) - private doesn't automatically translate to good. There are certainly some private schools that are much better than the public routes though. The entire goal of something like a voucher system is an increase in individual choice. Increased consumer choice usually does translate toward better results in any market, but schooling quality has a lot to do with parents too.


This article is interesting. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-schools-choice-neighborhood-enrollment-met-20160108-story.html)

re Louisiana, etc., this is what I said:

"and the DofE was created to PREVENT that, to have a standard of excellence, so that kids in Louisiana aren't learning solely about Adam, Eve, a fucking Ark that never really existed, and that evolution is Teh Evil.'

Per Wiki:

"The primary functions of the Department of Education are to 'establish policy for, administer and coordinate most federal assistance to education, collect data on US schools, and to enforce federal educational laws regarding privacy and civil rights. The Department's mission is: to promote student achievement and preparation for global competitiveness by fostering educational excellence and ensuring equal access (https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/role.html)."

See the Equal Educational Opportunity Act of 1974 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Educational_Opportunities_Act_of_1974).

"We must break the monopoly of the education establishment over public schools and introduce competitive market forces into the system to improve its performance. I support public schools. But today the difference between the performance of public and private schools in America is shocking. Public high school seniors who took the Scholastic Aptitude Test scored significantly lower than the private school seniors who did so. Many public schools are top-heavy, spending excessively on bloated administrative bureaucracies concerned more about maintaining their monopoly on public funds than about improving their performance. As The Economist reported, "New York's public-sector schools employ 10 times as many administrators per pupil as private schools do." Private schools ultimately must satisfy their customers--parents & students--by providing effective educational services. In this competitive environment, they must continuously strive to upgrade their programs or risk going out of business."
Source: Seize the Moment, by Richard Nixon, p.283 , Jan 15, 1992

"Teachers will earn more respect if they begin to focus more on teaching and less on theory and politics. Teacher unions pass resolutions against funding for the contras, investigate the political and cultural content of books & TV programming, and lobby tirelessly for higher salaries & benefits. As was the case even back when I attended Whittier College 55 years ago, the excruciatingly boring courses offered to education majors still emphasize HOW to teach rather than WHAT to teach. Many teachers still worry more about their students' feelings and cultural awareness than whether they can read, write, add, or think.
Teachers have to get back to the basics--a tougher curriculum, more time in the classroom for each student, and raises for teachers based on performance as well as seniority. Without these and other measures, such as parental choice, our young people will fall so far behind that we will run the risk of entering the next century as a nation of semi-literates in a world of PhDs."
Source: In The Arena, by Richard Nixon, p.112-113 , Jul 2, 1990

[Deepvoid]

Trump got duped by some fake news from Fox regarding Sweden.

http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/nyheter/swedish-police-featured-in-fox-news-segment-filmmaker-is-a-madman/

[Louie_Cypher]

was just reading something that stated there is no effective way to measure if a boarder wall works or not, which is like all of Trumps campaign promises, how do you measure great?
-Louie

[Sallos]

Trump got duped by some fake news from Fox regarding Sweden.

http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/nyheter/swedish-police-featured-in-fox-news-segment-filmmaker-is-a-madman/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1_viPSD-bY

[Deepvoid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1_viPSD-bY

What does have anything to do with the fake events that allegedly took place this past Friday?

Sweden immigration's policies have nothing to do with what Trump said. This is NOT about refugees.
I wanna facepalm your post so badly. Can anyone do it for me please?

[hellospaceboy]

I wanna facepalm your post so badly. Can anyone do it for me please?
You're welcome :)

EDIT: Also, referring to refugees as "importing rape" is fuckin' ignorant and racist, doesn't matter how many "police reports" the guy is waving around. We're just learning that many of the German new years eve mass rapes were fabricated racist fantasies, and degrading the refugees to sex craved twentysomethings is false... Also know as... wait for it... It's FAKE NEWS!!!!

[Sallos]

What does have anything to do with the fake events that allegedly took place this past Friday?

Sweden immigration's policies have nothing to do with what Trump said. This is NOT about refugees.
I wanna facepalm your post so badly. Can anyone do it for me please?

The video answered that, if you don't think it pertains to what was said, is being said about Sweden that's your problem.

[Sallos]

You're welcome :)

EDIT: Also, referring to refugees as "importing rape" is fuckin' ignorant and racist,

Apparently it is factual.


We're just learning that many of the German new years eve mass rapes were fabricated racist fantasies, and degrading the refugees to sex craved twentysomethings is false... Also know as... wait for it... It's FAKE NEWS!!!!
I only found articles saying that the Frankfurt new years was fabricated, unlike the Cologne one, which one your referring to? or both.

[Louie_Cypher]

fun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkoVHY43HkU
-louie

[allegro]

I watched that Swedish guy's video and he sounds pretty intelligent and unbiased, he is talking from the perspective of a resident of Sweden who is pro-immigration but thinks that Sweden has gone about this in a dumb way, and he is speaking to the increase in incidents of sexual harassment, rape, etc. And that is probably due to cultural differences, not all religious differences, although I do think that Islam has a different (subservient) view of women than sectarian societies. But the guy has a bunch of valid points.

Now, how that relates to Trump and his extemporaneous statements vs. his platform and goals that he alleges are the goals of the majority of American people, etc.: We can't speak about Sweden as Swedish citizens because we're not; we're American citizens who ALREADY have problems with rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, far more than that of Sweden, although the numbers have shown a decline the numbers in this country also don't reflect the fact that rape is very much underreported. Which is not tied to immigration, since it's our own American-born citizens who are committing these crimes. And maybe Sweden does in fact have statistics that show that newly-imported citizens who don't have the same cultural background as Swedish citizens don't necessarily subscribe to the same values as Swedish citizens and this has resulted in the increase of crimes against women or whomever.

But, we have to step back and say: "Okay, what does that have to do with US? The United States? What was President Trump saying, implying, by listing off these cities across the world, which were a combination of cities that have experienced Islamic terrorist attacks and a huge influx of Syrian refugee immigration? What is he trying to SAY, here?"

So we can look at OUR country, OUR stats, not at other countries:


1) We experienced the largest act of Islamic terrorism in the history of the world, committed by citizens of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates; all of those citizens were, at the time, on expired Visas. Those two countries are NOT on the current list of "Seven."

2) The alleged "Islamic" terrorism that HAS occurred in this country since 9/11 has been conducted SOLELY (with the exception of the K1 Visa wife of the San Bernadino terrorists) by United States citizens.

3) If the U.S. was a totally safe country, mostly free of rapes, murders, shootings, robbery, etc. etc., then maybe we could view the immigration thing through the eyes of Sweden. But, Sweden is paradise and the U.S. is "Escape from New York" by comparison. We already HAVE these problems, committed by U.S. citizens. But, Trump points out crimes committed by Islamic terrorists and undocumented immigrants as if THAT is the "problem" and if we "fix" that, we're gonna be The Garden of Eden.

4) Trump can't even manage to get past the "we're gonna take care of LAW AND ORDER in this Country!" rhetoric by providing real ACTION. So far, he has bitched about Chicago incessantly but has done NOTHING to assist Chicago. Not.one.thing.

5) So, why all this rhetoric? It's simple: He's very cognizant of fear in this country. It doesn't matter that we have security UP THE ASS everywhere, which is far tighter than that of any other country in the world, and which of course has compromised our liberty, but has been conducted under rhetoric like "DON'T YOU REMEMBER SEPTEMBER 11?" or "It's a price worth paying for our safety!" and "If i have to be butt-probed to insure safety, then give me the butter!!"

6) And, given all that, he's PT Barnum: he's giving people what they want: More fear. And who is gonna FIX that fear? Why, DONALD TRUMP, of course. ONLY HE can fix this, remember? He is going to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. Not that it isn't treasonous to imply that America isn't ALREADY great; no, see, America SUCKS and HE is gonna make it GREAT. Again. See all these other shitty countries? Yeah, we're gonna learn from their shit and be better!! No, don't look at OUR OWN SHIT, look at the OTHER shit. Fuck our own shit, although we can complain about it a lot, let's bitch and moan and whine and then don't DO anything, except maybe blame others for our own shit. And the dumb people yell "Yeah Fuck yeah! Fuck those niggers! Fuck those Mexicans! Fuck those towel heads!! Send 'em out, get 'em out!"

And it's like a Nuremberg rally. All blowing each other to get rid of those "other" people.

But, NOT guys like THIS:
http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/1101950501_400.jpg

http://i.wp.pl/a/f/jpeg/29582/holmes_afp_600.jpeg

http://www.rescuepost.com/.a/6a00d8357f3f2969e201a73d90b40e970d-pi

[Sallos]

You can't justify a bad example by giving another. Just because the US has problems with crime and rape already doesn't make it alright to bring more potential individuals who would further contribute to those problems. Hence why a reasonable immigration policy reform is needed. The debate of whether the current policy is suffice or not is another issue.

At this point i just think Trump is delivering on yet another promised he made during the campaign, which was to halt or vet more thoroughly people who came from a specific part of the world, who have wrecked havoc in every country with a significant Muslim population. Trump's presidency so far has been to deliver the promises he made during campaign, if there's anything that Trump will take out to 2020 is that he, unlike other politicians, delivers on those promises.

Frankly i think the problem is not the vetting, but whether the immigrants integrate or not, and you don't see much discussion about that either.

[allegro]

You can't justify a bad example by giving another. Just because the US has problems with crime and rape already doesn't make it alright to bring more potential individuals who would further contribute to those problems. Hence why a reasonable immigration policy reform is needed. The debate of whether the current policy is suffice or not is another issue.

At this point i just think Trump is delivering on yet another promised he made during the campaign, which was to halt or vet more thoroughly people who came from a specific part of the world, who have wrecked havoc in every country with a significant Muslim population. Trump's presidency so far has been to deliver the promises he made during campaign, if there's anything that Trump will take out to 2020 is that he, unlike other politicians, delivers on those promises.

Frankly i think the problem is not the vetting, but whether the immigrants integrate or not, and you don't see much discussion about that either.
Have you ever tried to get into the United States? We already HAVE "extreme vetting." It can take YEARS. Why do you think all of these people from Central America and Mexico and Cuba came here undocumented? Because it's so fucking hard to get in here.

Trump in fact has NOT delivered on most promises. His promise to "drain the swamp?" He filled it with pork. His promise to "get rid of Obamacare within the first 10 days?" Yeah, right. His promise to never touch Social Security and Medicare? He already hired Price who has vowed to get rid of same, with the help of Paul Ryan. Now, of course, it's only less than a month into his Presidency. And, yes, he promised to do something about immigration but even THAT has been done as if a drunk wrote up the papers. The shoddiest most ridiculous "ban" in history, which included banning Green Card holders who've been living here and paying taxes for decades. His "only deport the criminal Mexicans" has morphed into "if you weren't born here and you're undocumented, YOU'RE UNDER ARREST." He broke all those promises. So, no, he's not an unusual politician so far, he's just more of the same shit we always see. Except he's dumber.

We have seen discussions about vetting since September 11th. You don't live here, so you don't know. It's a constant rock-hard-place situation related to our Constitution, liberty, and how security fits into the big picture of liberty, and if we can have both liberty and security, etc. The whole Snowden Manning Wikileaks scandal related to the NSA and SPYING on immigrants but the NSA is also spying on US citizens and people in other countries including the PM of Germany, etc. We HAVE extreme vetting. LOTS of it. We don't and never have had "open" borders, except for those giant borders that aren't secured due to terrain. Go look at the history of Ellis Island (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qckucgf9cgc). EVERYONE in the US comes from immigrants, except for Native Americans. ALL OF US.

[Sallos]

Like i said the problem is not the vetting, Its whether they integrate in the society or not, and most of them do, in part because US is a capitalist society that rewards merit, unlike in Europe where the welfare state, for better and for worse rewards mediocrity.

[allegro]

Like i said the problem is not the vetting, Its whether they integrate in the society or not, and most of them do, in part because US is a capitalist society that rewards merit, unlike in Europe where the welfare state, for better and for worse rewards mediocrity.


I live around a bunch of Polish immigrants who don't want to "integrate" with American citizens; they stick to hanging out with other Polish, only speaking Polish unless when necessary, sending their children to Polish school, shopping at Polish stores, vacationing at Polish resorts. But, nobody cares about that, no Trump fans are saying "SEND THOSE FUCKING POLOCKS BACK TO POLAND IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT HERE AND IT'S SO FUCKING GREAT IN POLAND." So, the "problem" has nothing to do with not "integrating." It's more related to "othering" and prejudices.

The U.S. has a history of HATING Irish immigrants. For no valid reason other than just another group to kick. They were called horrible names, treated terribly. And that scapegoat group evolves here regularly. Hungarians are dirty Hunkies. Germans are Krauts. Mexicans are Spicks and Beaners. Polish are Dumb Polocks, there are BOOKS of nothing but Polish and Russian jokes (http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/worldjokes/polandjokes.html).

It's a game of "where I came from is better than where you came from."

[Sallos]

There are always groups who'll refuse to integrate, Hasidic jews don't either. Difference being so far the pollock and jews haven't carried out any attack on the west or western values. Can you name me when was the last time a polish guy threatened,tried or killed someone for making fun of the pope? Arabs, and muslisms, unlike the jews and those polish people you know are far more resistant to said integration.

[allegro]

There are always groups who'll refuse to integrate, Hasidic jews don't either. Difference being so far the pollock and jews haven't carried out any attack on the west or western values. Can you name me when was the last time a polish guy threatened,tried or killed someone for making fun of the pope? Arabs, and muslisms, unlike the jews and those polish people you know are far more resistant to said integration.

Can you name me a time since September 11th that any immigrant has caused any action of Terror in the United States? Besides the aforementioned San Bernadino K1 fiance?

We have MILLIONS of Muslims in this country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States), already, who are very successful and educated and are integral to our capitalist system.

Hasidic Jews assimilate here just fine, as part of the capitalist system. Catholics weren't supposed to go to the YMCA for generations (not a Catholic organization); that doesn't mean they haven't 'assimilated' into our system.

This country doesn't have a singular "national identity" or "culture." Ours is "melting pot" of dozens and dozens of other cultures that melt into one national identity. The only way we "assimilate" is to accept that we are the epitome of "The West."

[Sallos]

Can you name me a time since September 11th that any immigrant has caused any action of Terror in the United States? Besides the aforementioned San Bernadino K1 fiance?

We have MILLIONS of Muslims in this country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States), already, who are very successful and educated and are integral to our capitalist system.

Hasidic Jews assimilate here just fine, as part of the capitalist system. Catholics weren't supposed to go to the YMCA for generations (not a Catholic organization); that doesn't mean they haven't 'assimilated' into our system.

No but i can name terrorist attempts.

[Jinsai]

No but i can name terrorist attempts.

And I can name examples of white Christians who have actually committed terrorist acts because they hate minorities, whose names don't escape Trump's mouth because they don't play into his agenda.

[Sallos]

And I can name examples of white Christians who have actually committed terrorist acts because they hate minorities, whose names don't escape Trump's mouth because they don't play into his agenda.

Which white Christians are trying to enter your country that need vetting?

[Jinsai]

Which white Christians are trying to enter your country that need vetting?

Every single white Christian who wants to immigrate to this country?! We DO vet people. Everyone who wants to come here gets vetted.

[allegro]

Which white Christians are trying to enter your country that need vetting?

We scrutinize everybody, now, including Christians. For many years, we had a "preferred" list but those days are long gone.

Jinsai's point is that we have to focus on preventing our own CITIZENS from not committing acts of terrorism or other violent acts, which we can't seem to do, despite lots of added security. Now, we all have to be frisked and wanded at pretty much all big events after the Boston Bombing.

My friend is a college professor and they now go through "shooter training" on what to do if a shooter shows up on campus and starts shooting people. Which of course is not related to international terrorism but is a big reality for us, due to so many school shootings. I know a professor who was shot here at Northern Illinois University during a mass shooting.

[Louie_Cypher]

john hit's it out of the park again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0utzB6oDan0
-Louie

[theimage13]

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16806993_10101954378716394_3410889036379499525_n.j pg?oh=d7bfbb45a653565e428c4dd595c9bbe8&oe=59486635

This is fucking terrifying. I haven't been able to personally verify the email itself, but the context is legit - the survey has been re-released at a new address. It's IP blocked (so you can't even take it on two computers in the same house), but I was able to take this one while the old one still won't let me back in. So that makes me think this is actually authentic.

Here's the "new" link (for the exact same survey, again): https://action.donaldjtrump.com/mainstream-media-accountability-survey/

Please, please take the 60 seconds needed to fill this out. I don't care that it has no scientific merit, because his supporters don't care either. If the White House likes the numbers they see, they'll flaunt it as scientific fact from the press room, and Donald's supporters will believe it because "how could it be a lie if the poll numbers said so???"

If nothing else, read the text in that image. I mean, really read it. Let it sink in. I'm fucking scared.

[Deepvoid]

This is fucking terrifying. I haven't been able to personally verify the email itself, but the context is legit - the survey has been re-released at a new address. It's IP blocked (so you can't even take it on two computers in the same house), but I was able to take this one while the old one still won't let me back in. So that makes me think this is actually authentic.

Here's the "new" link (for the exact same survey, again): https://action.donaldjtrump.com/mainstream-media-accountability-survey/

Please, please take the 60 seconds needed to fill this out. I don't care that it has no scientific merit, because his supporters don't care either. If the White House likes the numbers they see, they'll flaunt it as scientific fact from the press room, and Donald's supporters will believe it because "how could it be a lie if the poll numbers said so???"

If nothing else, read the text in that image. I mean, really read it. Let it sink in. I'm fucking scared.

Done. Hopefully, results are gonna get skewed again.

[allegro]

Rand Paul was on TV yesterday saying what Trump SAYS and what Trump DOES are two different things. MANY Presidents have feuded with the media. If Trump tries to pass a LAW restricting the media, THEN he can and will be called out for violating the very specific portion of the 1st Amendment providing freedom of the press (and maybe that will be a nail in his coffin -- it sure was for Nixon).

[theimage13]

Rand Paul was on TV yesterday saying what Trump SAYS and what Trump DOES are two different things. MANY Presidents have feuded with the media. If Trump tries to pass a LAW restricting the media, THEN he can and will be called out for violating the very specific portion of the 1st Amendment providing freedom of the press (and maybe that will be a nail in his coffin -- it sure was for Nixon).

That is true.

However, if he gets 62,000,000 people to think that the legitimate media are lying, then there's still this huge fucking problem of people now making their voting decisions based on utter bullshit - more so than the usual "politicians lie" type of stuff that we've always had on both sides. If the whole freaking right suddenly believes that real news is fake and fake news is real, that opens the door to the president being able to make up laws based on "facts" that aren't true, and his own party will go right along with it because the voters will be too stupid to see through it and complain to their elected officials about it.

I get your point about violating specific laws and trying to actually restrict the media through law vs just slandering them. And I get that social media jockeys everywhere (myself included) are allowed to call whatever we want "fake news". To me though, it feels like if the President of the United States of America stands up and says "black isn't black, black is white" when talking about a MAJOR news outlet, that there aught to be some sort of legal recourse. I'm not saying there IS. I'm just saying it feels like there should be.

Let me put it to you this way: some blogger said the first lady used to be an escort. She sued his ass and won (well, settled out of court - I'm sure she made out far better than the blogger). So if POTUS can stand behind a podium and say "CNN is fake news", why can't they sue him? If he's actively seeking to damage their reputation and cost them money/business, isn't that defamation? Blogger lies about Trump, blogger loses. Trump lies about news outlet...media outlet loses. What does it take to beat the president?

[Jinsai]

incoming poll results: 99.8% of Americans approve of everything Trump has said and done.

[Sutekh]

Like i said the problem is not the vetting, Its whether they integrate in the society or not, and most of them do, in part because US is a capitalist society that rewards merit, unlike in Europe where the welfare state, for better and for worse rewards mediocrity.

The UK isnt like that at all, benefits will be withdrawn if you don't work or look for work. We send people dying from cancer back to work. What you're saying is pretty standard rightist agitprop

[thevoid99]

incoming poll results: 99.8% of Americans approve of everything Trump has said and done.

Seriously?

[Piko]

What poll?

[allegro]

Trump's special alternative fact poll.

[thevoid99]

Trump's special alternative fact poll.

So I guess we're the 0.02% who are speaking false things according to him.

[theimage13]

incoming poll results: 99.8% of Americans approve of everything Trump has said and done.

Pretty sure (at least, I hope to god) that this is just a joke about what I posted on the last page.

[M1ke]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-compiles-psychological-dossier-trump-putin-n723196

So, apparently Russia's worried that Trump may fuck up so badly that he can't get the sanctions lifted that they wanted. Turns out, even for Russia, aiding an unhinged psychopath in winning the white house was a bad idea.

[M1ke]

This is fucking terrifying. I haven't been able to personally verify the email itself, but the context is legit - the survey has been re-released at a new address. It's IP blocked (so you can't even take it on two computers in the same house), but I was able to take this one while the old one still won't let me back in. So that makes me think this is actually authentic.

Here's the "new" link (for the exact same survey, again): https://action.donaldjtrump.com/mainstream-media-accountability-survey/

Please, please take the 60 seconds needed to fill this out. I don't care that it has no scientific merit, because his supporters don't care either. If the White House likes the numbers they see, they'll flaunt it as scientific fact from the press room, and Donald's supporters will believe it because "how could it be a lie if the poll numbers said so???"

If nothing else, read the text in that image. I mean, really read it. Let it sink in. I'm fucking scared.

What the fuck was that shit? It was propaganda framed up as a survey.

[theimage13]

What the fuck was that shit? It was propaganda framed up as a survey.

Yup. And that's why sites like NPR rightfully reported on it. http://www.npr.org/2017/02/17/515791540/the-trump-media-survey-is-phenomenally-biased-it-also-does-its-job-well

I really hope they follow up with this new one. I still haven't seen any further evidence that the screenshot is legit, but the survey itself certainly is, which lends credibility to the image.

[kdrcraig]

I love how after the survey they want you to donate money. That whole survey is insane

[theimage13]

I love how after the survey they want you to donate money. That whole survey is insane

Well keep in mind that the source is his own mailing list, so it's being sent out to those who have already supported him. What better time to ask for money than after you've gotten all worked up and answered a bunch of questions about how the evil media has been mean to your president?

[Louie_Cypher]

trump shadier than a maple tree maple tree https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8GIVHivbkI
-louie

[Sutekh]

The survey is there purely so they can quote the stats, because actual stats don't help them (being half based in reality)

Look at this one ;

"Do you believe that the mainstream media does not do their due diligence fact-checking before publishing stories on the Trump administration?"

Fuzzy wording, followed by yes or no options... that way the answer you give can be taken as either "yes, I believe they don't fact check" or "no, I don't believe they fact check"

Comical stuff, like a banana republic dictator or something

[allegro]

Well keep in mind that the source is his own mailing list, so it's being sent out to those who have already supported him. What better time to ask for money than after you've gotten all worked up and answered a bunch of questions about how the evil media has been mean to your president?

To be fair, after every political survey I answer online or every petition I sign online, they ask for money. MoveOn, the ACLU, Social Security Works all ask for money after I sign a petition etc. It's pretty typical marketing.

I did the Trump media poll twice (one was GOP, one was Trump) and I had to answer several questions with "no opinion" because the questions were so tricky.

On another topic: what the hell is going on with these JCC threats?? Why on earth has anti-semitism increased like this? Trump rhetoric or just more overall hate? G and I joined the local JCC fitness center recently and this is ridiculous. What sick jerk wants to bomb a Jewish Community Center where there are CHILDREN and non-Jews, too? The J fitness centers are like the Y (Young Men's Christian Association which welcomes everyone, it's community-oriented and family-oriented). These threats are based on hate but these people are also totally ignorant and, well, evil and I rarely use that word.

[Jinsai]

Yeah... Just to clarify, my 99.8% approval comment was a joke... Sorta... About this propaganda poll. The intention behind it is blatant, and the phrasing of its questions is insane and scary

[allegate]

There are many proposals for how to change things. Some involve vouchers that DO cover enough.


Why does it HAVE to come from feds? Why not state?Riddle me this:

If the states cover it, where does that money come from? Taxes? Taxes that the Republicans (and some of the fringe groups) don't like to pay and keep cutting? Where does this money come from then?

[Khrz]

There are always groups who'll refuse to integrate, Hasidic jews don't either. Difference being so far the pollock and jews haven't carried out any attack on the west or western values. Can you name me when was the last time a polish guy threatened,tried or killed someone for making fun of the pope? Arabs, and muslisms, unlike the jews and those polish people you know are far more resistant to said integration.

Define "The West" again ?

I know you're on a roll about religious groups, but in France for instance, we've had terrorist attacks from various separatist groups (Brittany, Basque country, Corsica), Far left movements, Anti-immigration/anti-left movements, antisemitic terrorist attacks, secular terrorist attacks... And now islamic terrorism.
We're so used to it our garbage bins are specially designed so that you can't shove and hide an IED in there. We've had soldiers patrolling the streets since the 90ies.

Shudder all you want every time you hear "islam", I know they're the Big Bad in vogue right now. Immigration isn't the cause of terrorism though. Radical ideologies are.

[allegate]

Define "The West" again ?

I know you're on a roll about religious groups, but in France for instance, we've had terrorist attacks from various separatist groups (Brittany, Basque country, Corsica), Far left movements, Anti-immigration/anti-left movements, antisemitic terrorist attacks, secular terrorist attacks... And now islamic terrorism.
We're so used to it our garbage bins are specially designed so that you can't shove and hide an IED in there. We've had soldiers patrolling the streets since the 90ies.

Shudder all you want every time you hear "islam", I know they're the Big Bad in vogue right now. Immigration isn't the cause of terrorism though. Radical ideologies are.So that's not a new thing? That's kind of a relief as we were in Paris for the EURO finals last summer and saw roving bands of soldiers all over the city, even inside the Louvre. The hotel was fucking shaking from the people in the bar after the France team scored their goals against Germany. Sadly we flew out the next day but it was a spectacle.

[Khrz]

So that's not a new thing? That's kind of a relief as we were in Paris for the EURO finals last summer and saw roving bands of soldiers all over the city, even inside the Louvre. The hotel was fucking shaking from the people in the bar after the France team scored their goals against Germany. Sadly we flew out the next day but it was a spectacle.


Vigipirate (French: Plan Vigipirate) is France's national security alert system. Created in 1978 by President Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, it has since been updated three times: in 1995 (following a terror bombing campaign), 2000 and 2004

Oddly enough, the english wiki doesn't mention it first rolled out during the first Gulf War. The army presence has been definitive since 1995. Not quite to that extent mind you, it's been progressively reinforced.

[Louie_Cypher]

it's still all bullshit you are not going to ever be involved in a terrorist attack, let me repeat that for you very slowly you will not be involved in a terrorist attack
-louie

[GibbonBlack]

it's still all bullshit you are not going to ever be involved in a terrorist attack, let me repeat that for you very slowly you will not be involved in a terrorist attack
-louie

...you've posted that after the wrong person

[Jinsai]

why does every younger male Trump defender look like they modeled themselves after one of the villains from an 80s coming-of-age comedy? Every time one of these bastards shows up on my TV, I immediately think of a scene from Animal House or Better Off Dead.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AasUexnTrV4

[onthewall2983]

God I don't even need to watch this to agree with you. He looks straight out of central casting.

[Sutekh]

Looks like a little wiener...sounds like a little wiener

Has probably felt powerless and rejected his whole life, and this is how he gets a sense of power, belonging and purpose. It is that simple...

[Sallos]

Define "The West" again ?

I know you're on a roll about religious groups, but in France for instance, we've had terrorist attacks from various separatist groups (Brittany, Basque country, Corsica), Far left movements, Anti-immigration/anti-left movements, antisemitic terrorist attacks, secular terrorist attacks... And now islamic terrorism.
We're so used to it our garbage bins are specially designed so that you can't shove and hide an IED in there. We've had soldiers patrolling the streets since the 90ies.

Shudder all you want every time you hear "islam", I know they're the Big Bad in vogue right now. Immigration isn't the cause of terrorism though. Radical ideologies are.

Immigration is bringing radical ideologies, the lack of integration of said immigrants makes them prone to adhere to radical ideologies. Not only that the current wave of migrants will threaten the social cohesion that existed in Europe for decades.

[Sutekh]

Immigration is bringing radical ideologies, the lack of integration of said immigrants makes them prone to adhere to radical ideologies. Not only that the current wave of migrants will threaten the social cohesion that existed in Europe for decades.

What like world war 2, the cold war and a divided Germany, the Irish troubles, the Italian days of lead, ETA in Spain, the baader meinhof...etc...

I don't advocate uncontrolled, open door immigration and there is a problem within the Islamic world at the moment, but pretending Europe was peaceful and unified before muslims came along is an ahistorical romanticist fantasy.

I'm not saying "it was always violent and riven, might as well let it continue", I'm just warning you against falling for these fantasies and the people who peddle them. The last thing they want to build is social cohesion

[Sallos]

What like world war 2, the cold war and a divided Germany, the Irish troubles, the Italian days of lead, ETA in Spain, the baader meinhof...etc...

I don't advocate uncontrolled, open door immigration and there is a problem within the Islamic world at the moment, but pretending Europe was peaceful and unified before muslims came along is an ahistorical romanticist fantasy.

I'm not saying "it was always violent and riven, might as well let it continue", I'm just warning you against falling for these fantasies and the people who peddle them. The last thing they want to build is social cohesion

I don't see how the fact that Europe had a violent past means we shouldn't take measures to prevent more violence and divisiveness.

[hellospaceboy]

Immigration is bringing radical ideologies, the lack of integration of said immigrants makes them prone to adhere to radical ideologies. Not only that the current wave of migrants will threaten the social cohesion that existed in Europe for decades.

As I mentioned it before, Europe has an integration problem as a whole. I have many friends who are EU citizens and moved to the UK, Austria, Belgium, etc (which they have the legal right to do so), and they're white, christian, they speak the language and function very well in society, yet they are not really accepted into society. You can move to France, and see how long before the locals consider you to be french. Or again, like my friends, British. (Hint: NEVER) Many western-European countries have anti-muslim laws (France, I'm looking at you)... So to look at these Syrian refugees and blame them for not integrating and feeling marginalized is ridiculous! In Hungary, just this past year, the government had an official media campaign with giant posters reminding refugees that they have to learn Hungarian, that it's a christian country, that they can't take jobs from Hungarians... but hey, they are the assholes for not integrating, right?!

In America, we have a culture that allows for actual integration (I just became a US citizen myself, and I feel that people really accept me as such), but making anti-Muslim laws will only make people feel marginalized here too! Again, most radicalization happens online anyway, but I can't think of a better way to help it than handcuff 5 year old children at the airport (as a result of Trump's Muslim ban)... In America, we don't have a Muslim integration problem, because we accept people who practice their own culture and we know that it doesn't make them less American.

[theimage13]

it's still all bullshit you are not going to ever be involved in a terrorist attack, let me repeat that for you very slowly you will not be involved in a terrorist attack
-louie

Okay, I need to point out that this is naive.

The likelihood is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very low. That is true. But terrorist attacks happen, and they can happen anywhere. I'm speaking of ALL motivations - not just the main one this country is freaking out about.

I fly several times a month. I make my living working at large, public events. I very, very nearly lost friends at the Bataclan. I had friends and relatives within 100 yards of the Boston Marathon bombing.

Statistically, the odds of being involved in - and especially dying in - a terrorist attack are incredibly slim, especially for those of us in the States. But to explicitly state that it will not happen is naive. No one thought they were going to die in the federal building in OKC. No one thought they would die in San Bernardino. No one thought they would die going to work at the WTC. It can happen. It does happen. It most likely won't. But "most likely" does not mean "will not".

I'm not saying everyone should be walking around paranoid that they're going to get shot or blown up before sunset. I'm just saying that every time it does happen, the reaction from the town is "no one ever thought this could happen here". So keep that tucked away. Learn basic crisis survival skills (such as learning how to instantly choose between running vs hiding; how to secure a door, etc). Don't stay awake at night worrying that each day could be your last. But don't pretend it "can't" happen, because that's what everybody thinks right before it happens to them.

[Khrz]

And nobody mentions the affective splash damage, which is considerably wider than winning the lottery (according to the famous analogy).

Sure the chances to actually be involved in a terrorist attack are slim. But once you take into account that your family, friends and colleagues might be, the statistical likelihood rises considerably.

[Sallos]

Wasn't there a guy that survived both 9/11 and the bataclan attack?

[Sallos]

As I mentioned it before, Europe has an integration problem as a whole. I have many friends who are EU citizens and moved to the UK, Austria, Belgium, etc (which they have the legal right to do so), and they're white, christian, they speak the language and function very well in society, yet they are not really accepted into society. You can move to France, and see how long before the locals consider you to be french. Or again, like my friends, British. (Hint: NEVER) Many western-European countries have anti-muslim laws (France, I'm looking at you)... So to look at these Syrian refugees and blame them for not integrating and feeling marginalized is ridiculous! In Hungary, just this past year, the government had an official media campaign with giant posters reminding refugees that they have to learn Hungarian, that it's a christian country, that they can't take jobs from Hungarians... but hey, they are the assholes for not integrating, right?!

In America, we have a culture that allows for actual integration (I just became a US citizen myself, and I feel that people really accept me as such), but making anti-Muslim laws will only make people feel marginalized here too! Again, most radicalization happens online anyway, but I can't think of a better way to help it than handcuff 5 year old children at the airport (as a result of Trump's Muslim ban)... In America, we don't have a Muslim integration problem, because we accept people who practice their own culture and we know that it doesn't make them less American.

Yes Europe does have a problem with integrating their immigrants, which again is reason why taking them by the millions is anything but smart.

[Exocet]

As I mentioned it before, Europe has an integration problem as a whole. I have many friends who are EU citizens and moved to the UK, Austria, Belgium, etc (which they have the legal right to do so), and they're white, christian, they speak the language and function very well in society, yet they are not really accepted into society. You can move to France, and see how long before the locals consider you to be french. Or again, like my friends, British. (Hint: NEVER) Many western-European countries have anti-muslim laws (France, I'm looking at you)... So to look at these Syrian refugees and blame them for not integrating and feeling marginalized is ridiculous! In Hungary, just this past year, the government had an official media campaign with giant posters reminding refugees that they have to learn Hungarian, that it's a christian country, that they can't take jobs from Hungarians... but hey, they are the assholes for not integrating, right?!

In America, we have a culture that allows for actual integration (I just became a US citizen myself, and I feel that people really accept me as such), but making anti-Muslim laws will only make people feel marginalized here too! Again, most radicalization happens online anyway, but I can't think of a better way to help it than handcuff 5 year old children at the airport (as a result of Trump's Muslim ban)... In America, we don't have a Muslim integration problem, because we accept people who practice their own culture and we know that it doesn't make them less American.


Given Americas history please dont lecture European countries on 'intergration'...is it only for certain groups?

The biggest minority in the UK are Indians (Hindus) they assimilate fine, they have among the highest incomes.

[Jinsai]

Given Americas history please dont lecture European countries on 'intergration'..

What the fuck is intergration?

[hellospaceboy]

Given Americas history please dont lecture European countries on 'intergration'...is it only for certain groups?

The biggest minority in the UK are Indians (Hindus) they assimilate fine, they have among the highest incomes.

What do you mean only for certain groups?!?!

And I am also a Hungarian citizen, so my "lecture" wasn't some far away perspective, but I lived in both continents and there is definitely a different view on national identity. I know people from neighboring countries like Romania who speak perfect Hungarian and integrated 100%, yet they are still not considered Hungarian by most people. In their head it's a question of blood, you can't become one. Like I said, you can't really become French. Not really.

In this regard, there is a different view of identity in the US. Again, I'm sure you can bring up the civil rights struggle or whatever you want, I know the country isn't perfect. All I was saying is that culturally there is a way to truly integrate here, because people don't think of being American as genetic.

[Sallos]

Also because, the US, unlike most european countries, is not a nation state.

[Sutekh]

I don't see how the fact that Europe had a violent past means we shouldn't take measures to prevent more violence and divisiveness.

The final paragraph of my post addressed exactly that assumption. Why are you posing that question when I've already addressed it? I made it quite clear I don't think that. Why have you not taken that into account?

[Sutekh]

Wasn't there a guy that survived both 9/11 and the bataclan attack?

I survived the Omagh bombing and was trapped in the midst of the Lee Rigby murder... what's your point?

[Sutekh]

Sorry to triple post, but Sallo I am not saying you're full of Shit, shut up..I'm saying reality and a realistic attitude lies in between what you're saying and what the people trying to shut you down are saying.

If we all are going to quote stats and personal experiences as trumping abstract opinion, then I would ask you all to hear me out as I have first hand experience of terrorism. Neither liberals or alt right/conservative have fully adjusted opinions on the matter

[Sallos]

I survived the Omagh bombing and was trapped in the midst of the Lee Rigby murder... what's your point?

Read the two posts above


The final paragraph of my post addressed exactly that assumption. Why are you posing that question when I've already addressed it? I made it quite clear I don't think that. Why have you not taken that into account?

I missed it.

[Sallos]

Sorry to triple post, but Sallo I am not saying you're full of Shit, shut up..I'm saying reality and a realistic attitude lies in between what you're saying and what the people trying to shut you down are saying.

If we all are going to quote stats and personal experiences as trumping abstract opinion, then I would ask you all to hear me out as I have first hand experience of terrorism. Neither liberals or alt right/conservative have fully adjusted opinions on the matter

This conversation has been going on for awhile now and i admit i don't know exactly what were discussing anymore, but what was it exactly that i said that you don't agree with

[Jinsai]

Looks like a little wiener...sounds like a little wiener

Has probably felt powerless and rejected his whole life, and this is how he gets a sense of power, belonging and purpose. It is that simple...

Harlan Hill. He's also almost certainly a cartoon dreamt up in a Fox think tank. He even looks like the Gamergater MRA wearing-a-fedora meme... but with a shitty bow tie instead.

So I was bored, and decided to actually look this insufferable guy up. The banner on his Twitter feed reads TV + Startups + Politics. Millennial
The bold lettering was his choice, not mine.

I went back and looked through his early tweets and other blips on the radar. Not much to see there. His early tweets were centered around his startup web development company Coraloo (now defunct). A Tea Party leaning site wrote a piece talking about how a group called NoVoucherTax had ties to a group he was running, and claims it was a wolf-in-sheep's clothing attempt by progressives to misrepresent the Tea Party some time in 2011. Not really sure what that means in the long run... Other than that, I didn't really find anything about him from that time.

His first Tweet was in July 9th, 2010. It's full of social media news, Steve Jobs worship, posts about food...

His first politically related tweet was on July 11th, 2011. RT @AspenInstitute: I have more followers in my state that read my twitter feed than read my local newspaper - @CoryBooker #Aspenideas

I'm not entirely sure what is being actually discussed here. It was liked by one person though... which is more action than most of his early tweets get. Anyway, that's the first mention of a politician. In october he posted a link to an article about Obama occasionally writing personal checks to constituents in need. Makes a mention of the popularity of Huffpost outpacing Politico and CNN Politics a little bit later. A while later he endorses Democrat Mildred Poonan, who went on to lose the primary to represent the Congressional District of Maryland.

Back to talking about smart phones, gadgets, Steve Jobs, pizza, Steve Jobs, Apple, weather, gadgets, Steve Jobs...

November 2012, slams GOP for ignoring climate science, makes a post celebrating Obama's re-election.
December 2012, he makes a post about the declining popularity of Republican Rick Snyder. No further commentary or discussion really... crickets...

Through 2013 and 2014 he makes a small number of tepid pro-Democrat comments. None of these comments that I saw (I admit, I was skimming... I'm not going to actually sift through the thousands of tweets) mentioned Bernie Sanders in a positive light. I saw no evidence that he was a die-had Bernie fan.

In November 2015, he makes a quick note of congratulating Democrat John Bel Edward's victory.

On December 4th, he bitches about progressive cry babies.

December 24th, he appeared on Fox New's show Happening Now. He is introduced as a democratic strategist and political consultant, with a vague and unlisted number of qualifications. I guess this was to frame a counter-point to their Republican Strategist. Harlon Hill proceeds to bash Clinton and agree with the Republican counterpoint and the host. He forgot the bow tie for this one.

In preparing for that interview, he was asked on Twitter if Hillary should be held to task for enabling in her husband's rapes and abuses of women. His answer: "Yes I do."

Two days after his appearance on Fox, he tweets a snipe at Bernie Sanders, saying "every time a D takes a swing at Trump it cements his lead."

Fox News brings him back on, this time to talk about how Bernie Sanders and Trump have a lot in common. The host even laughs at one point and says "hey, you're starting to sound more like a Trump supporter than a Democrat!!!"

Maybe that 's why a day later he appeared on O'Reilly and took a stance accusing both parties of being responsible for partisan divisiveness... saying that it wasn't ALL Obama's fault.

On another fox interview, he shouts down a democrat trying to defend a statement made by Clinton that both the host and Harlon are twisting and intentionally misrepresenting. The guy never really gets to present his point, and Harlon finally sums up this pathetic attempt at trying to seem defiant and bold: "The difference between you and me is that I am not afraid to hold Hillary Clinton to task and you ARE!" Fox has regularly propped him up to fill this purpose since, and his regular featuring on their channel has come full circle to establishing him as a political commentator.

On January 4th, 2017, he appeared on Info Wars alongside Roger Stone, who is a shitbag on an entirely other level.

Fast forward to just the other day, where he is now best known for having his ass laughably handed to him on CNN while he tries to defend Donald Trump for shushing and deriding a question about the rise in anti-semitism.

[Exocet]

What the fuck is intergration?

I dont know...i hear the words.intergration and assimilation all the time..i dont know if they are the same thing...i think its about melding into the society you enter..Adapting to it....

I was responding to the poster who was implying the US is an immigrants utopia everyone should immitate immune to the trappings of Europe...
U.S have had 4 islamic terror attacks in the past 18 months..minor ones..,the pipe bomber...Ohio State..San Bernadino and the guy that shot up the army centre...
the UK has had none...most European countries have not.

[allegate]

So I was bored, and decided to actually look this insufferable guy up.
Honestly, I like both of them for the choice of topic.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/06/you-dont-say.gif

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/nicholas-cage-you-dont-say.gif

[Jinsai]

I dont know...i hear the words.intergration and assimilation all the time..

There's gotta be a perfect way to respond to this, but I'm sure it requires a meme, and I'm at a loss.

[Exocet]

There's gotta be a perfect way to respond to this, but I'm sure it requires a meme, and I'm at a loss.

The person mentioned the word intergration...i dont really know what the difference between intergration and assimilation are...
The French prefer Assimilation..UK prefers...intergration....

the U.S in 1925 passed a bill that restricted anyone who was not from North Western Europe from entering...
your country has been hostile to intergration/assimilation ...
you were not that much different to South Africa prior to the 1960s...
Its like when Germany moans at the UK about democracy...

[hellospaceboy]

I dont know...i hear the words.intergration and assimilation all the time..i dont know if they are the same thing...i think its about melding into the society you enter..Adapting to it....

Is there a weird joke with the spelling that only I'm not getting?!


I was responding to the poster who was implying the US is an immigrants utopia everyone should immitate immune to the trappings of Europe...

Clearly not what I said.

[Jinsai]

Is there a weird joke with the spelling that only I'm not getting?!

Well, I definitely don't hear the word "intergration" all the time, never heard it before this thread... so I also do not know what it means.

[Exocet]

Is there a weird joke with the spelling that only I'm not getting?!





Clearly not what I said.

oh what bullshit you were so condescending...you were clearly saying America has a better way of 'intergrating'...compared to the terrorist infested Europe...read your post again...dont keep coming back with empty snarky comments...

[GibbonBlack]

Well, I definitely don't hear the word "intergration" all the time, never heard it before this thread... so I also do not know what it means.

It basically means 'to merge'. I live in an area that sees a lot of eastern european immigrants and I hear it all the time

[theimage13]

http://i.imgur.com/04Y53eL.png

[Jinsai]

It basically means 'to merge'. I live in an area that sees a lot of eastern european immigrants and I hear it all the time

ok, I think I get it... Let me try to use it in a sentence.

"With Betsy DeVos now taking on the role of Secretary of Education, we're probably going to start hearing the word 'intergration' more frequently in the coming years."

[allegro]

ok, I think I get it... Let me try to use it in a sentence.

"With Betsy DeVos now taking on the role of Secretary of Education, we're probably going to start hearing the word 'intergration' more frequently in the coming years."

Amen. Intergration (with an R in it) is NOT an English word.

The resident English majors have spoken.

Edit: Note that the original poster of that word speaks another language as a first language, not English. But, I think it was just a typo.

For the record: It's INTEGRATE (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/integrate).

[allegro]

Well, I definitely don't hear the word "intergration" all the time, never heard it before this thread... so I also do not know what it means.

It's kinda like irregardless (not a word).

We hear that all the time, too. And it makes me want to stab people.

Kinda like "jive (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jive)" when people mean to use "gibe" / "jibe."

[Jinsai]

Edit: Note that the original poster of that word speaks another language as a first language, not English. But, I think it was just a typo.
@hellospaceboy (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1687) spelled it right..
Either way, I was just joking around about it. The word sounded funny to me.

My pet peeve is probably "expresso"

[Exocet]

Amen. Intergration (with an R in it) is NOT an English word.

The resident English majors have spoken.

Edit: Note that the original poster of that word speaks another language as a first language, not English. But, I think it was just a typo.

For the record: It's INTEGRATE (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/integrate).

What the fuck are you talking about?

[allegro]

What the fuck are you talking about?

InteRgrate is not an English word.

INTEGRATE (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/integrate) is the correct word.

See also. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_integration)

The antonym is segregate.

See etymology HERE (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=integrate).


integrate (v.)
1630s, "to render (something) whole, bring together the parts of," from Latin integratus, past participle of integrare "make whole," from integer "whole, complete," figuratively, "untainted, upright," literally "untouched," from in- "not" (see in- (1)) + root of tangere "to touch," from PIE root *tag- "to touch, handle" (see tangent (adj.)).

The meaning "put together parts or elements and combine them into a whole" is from 1802. The "racially desegregate" sense (1940) probably is a back-formation from integration. Related: Integrated; integrating.

[Jinsai]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Just politics and stuff.

[allegro]

You guys are insanely pedantic. He simply misspelled interragrate.


Interragrate = interrogate + integrate. It's basically how Trump wants immigration to happen.

Nah, he didn't. It's probably a typo of integrate.

And Interragrate is not an English word, either.

It's: Integrate (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/integrate)

[Jinsai]

I'm attempting to diffuse the pedantry with some trolling is all :p

Possibly it's a linguistic portmanteau of 'intertwine' and 'grateful?'

The political intrigue thickens...

Anyway, sorry for the drift. I needed to brighten my day up a bit. Back to the regularly scheduled nightmare.

[allegro]

Possibly it's a linguistic portmanteau of 'intertwine' and 'grateful?'

The political intrigue thickens...

Anyway, sorry for the drift. I needed to brighten my day up a bit. Back to the regularly scheduled nightmare.

It brightened my day that you just used "portmanteau!" LOVE IT.

[hellospaceboy]

oh what bullshit you were so condescending...you were clearly saying America has a better way of 'intergrating'...compared to the terrorist infested Europe...read your post again...dont keep coming back with empty snarky comments...

First of all, yes, it is spelled integrating.

And "saying that in the US the culture allows for better integration" is exactly what I said. I stand by that.

YOU translated it as "implying the US is an immigrants utopia everyone should immitate immune to the trappings of Europe..." and that is not the fuckin' same.

[hellospaceboy]

@hellospaceboy (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1687) spelled it right..

You bet your ass I did! :) English might be my second language but I pride myself in my grammar... could I say because....

I...


fully...

INTEGRATED!!!!!!!!

[Exocet]

First of all, yes, it is spelled integrating.

And "saying that in the US the culture allows for better integration" is exactly what I said. I stand by that.

YOU translated it as "implying the US is an immigrants utopia everyone should immitate immune to the trappings of Europe..." and that is not the fuckin' same.




US Muslim Population...3.3 Million out of 325 Million
UK Muslim Population...3.4 Million out of 65 Million
France Muslim Population...6-7 Million out of 65 Million

Its not the same . If the US had the same demographics of France you would have 35 Million Muslims....

[allegro]

US Muslim Population...3.3 Million out of 325 Million
UK Muslim Population...3.4 Million out of 65 Million
France Muslim Population...6-7 Million out of 65 Million

Its not the same . If the US had the same demographics of France you would have 35 Million Muslims....

I think what he is saying, what is hard to explain unless you live here, is that we don't separate Islam that way. We aren't a secular nation. We are a nation based on freedom of religion, far more than heritage. And, as Sallos indicated, we're not a nation state. Our country is inhabited ENTIRELY by immigrants, except for Native Americans (f/k/a "Indians") who were the first inhabitants.

The only reason this immigration "ban" came up is due to terrorism, and we know a LOT about that, given that we experienced the BIGGEST terrorist attack in World History. But, we have every kind of religion and heritage and culture here. We were FOUNDED due to freedom of religion. Nobody is expected to "assimilate" due to religion. And, being "American" is far more than just a citizenship; being "American" means FREE. "Land of the Free."

We happen to be a primarily Judeo-Christian nation. But that demographic is changing with the huge influx of Asians. Chinese and Indian immigrants are currently our biggest group of immigrants.

So I think what hellospaceboy is saying is that we don't have our own culture or specific religion, here, because we are a melting pot of all cultures and religions.

He said it's NOT the same as Europe; go read the last sentence of his post carefully.


Let's do the math, here, though, as to whether or not the U.S. has experienced Islamic terrorism. These affected more then 3 people:

* Orlando: 50 dead, 50 injured
* Boston Marathon: 6 dead, 280 injured
* San Bernadino: 16 dead, 24 injured
* St Cloud, MN: 9 injured
* NYC/NJ 2016: 30 injured
* Columbus, OH: 11 injured
* NYC 9/11: 2,996 dead, 6,000+ injured


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFiEgwLQVJk

[allegro]

It should also be mentioned that, here in this country, this Trump immigration ban is being compared to the Japanese interment camps during WWII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans) and to Jews escaping the Nazis and being denied Visas in the U.S. (https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005139).

The former, while having been declared unconstitutional, was instituted because we were at war with Japan.

The latter is mostly blamed on Anti-Semitic people in the Immigration Dept.

[hellospaceboy]

US Muslim Population...3.3 Million out of 325 Million
UK Muslim Population...3.4 Million out of 65 Million
France Muslim Population...6-7 Million out of 65 Million

Its not the same . If the US had the same demographics of France you would have 35 Million Muslims....

Maybe because I don't think that there's anything wrong with being Muslim, to me these are not scary numbers...

Being Muslim doesn't mean you didn't integrate into a culture. My wife is a nurse, and the hospital she works at has 40% Muslim doctors. They're people, just like anyone else. Some are fantastic, some are not. My favorite ice cream shop is owned/run by a Muslim family. Wearing a hijab doesn't mean that you didn't learn the local culture. It's fine. The ladies behind the counter make the ice cream with a hijab on. So what? They're just as American as the white people buying their ice cream.

[onthewall2983]

The videos coming out of these townhalls are brutal, and beautiful at the same time.

[allegro]

The videos coming out of these townhalls are brutal, and beautiful at the same time.

Oh yeah I ESPECIALLY love the one with the lady yelling at Mitch McConnell:

http://boingboing.net/2017/02/22/its-very-pleasing-to-watch-m.html

[Swykk]

The videos coming out of these townhalls are brutal, and beautiful at the same time.

Hoping it leads to a lot of them being voted out in 2018 but I should clarify that I don't have much hope at all in it actually happening.

[Swykk]

Nothing's less shocking:

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/320753-house-measure-forcing-release-of-info-on-trump-conflicts-likely-to-die-in

[Louie_Cypher]

got written up because I had count-down clock on my desk "days since trump screwed" up. was told it created a hostile environment. might give my two weeks I feel I have the right to open political expression!
-Louie

[theimage13]

I felt literally - not figuratively, literally - sick after reading this (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/family-attorney-denied-access-hospitalized-asylum-seeker-45645611).

This (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/rumana-ahmed-trump/517521/) is also the kind of thing that makes me lose all faith in America.

[hellospaceboy]

got written up because I had count-down clock on my desk "days since trump screwed" up. was told it created a hostile environment. might give my two weeks I feel I have the right to open political expression!
-Louie

You probably don't have that right. Most companies have policies that limit your ability to express yourself at work.

[Khrz]

You probably don't have that right. Most companies have policies that limit your ability to express yourself at work.

That wouldn't be surprising, and honestly I don't find it shocking. You want the workplace to be as neutral as possible, in general. If everyone starts to display his personal opinions on their desk, you're asking for one ugly mess, and a serious obstacle to productivity.

[allegro]

You probably don't have that right. Most companies have policies that limit your ability to express yourself at work.

Correct. The 1st Amendment (right to free speech) is limited and protects you from being ARRESTED BY THE GOVERNMENT for said free speech (which does not apply to dangerous speech like yelling "FiRE!" in a crowded room, or "HI JACK" in an airport, etc.) Said 1st Amendment does NOT apply to employment, etc.

For instance: Federal employees are specifically barred from discussing any kind of political matters or participating in specific political activities while on the job, including the wearing of t-shirts, buttons, etc. per the Hatch Act of 1939 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_Act_of_1939).

[Jinsai]

99% of the time, I keep political and religious opinions as far as possible from any work environment. I'll admit that, given that I live in California and work in a mostly liberally dominated field, I have voiced my opinion on what's been happening. Maybe it was just out of shock, since I usually don't come close to doing that. I guess, fortunately for me, I'm in southern California, so nobody got pissed

It's generally not a good idea, and probably not the best method of protest or self expression.

[allegro]

It DOES have the potential to create a hostile work environment, from a management standpoint.

The less people know about me at work, the better, is my motto. I don't want to eat with them, drink with them, hang out with them, etc. I have gone out to lunch a few times but that's so they don't think I'm secretly planning to kill them, otherwise I don't come to work to socialize; I come to work to WORK, then I go home to my real life and my real family and my real friends. I've seen far too many people get bitten on the ass for bringing their personal lives and opinions to work.

[Jinsai]

that Trump poll was apparently not even tracking the results of the poll answers, but looks more like a viral bid to raise funds via the donation link.

https://medium.com/@justdevin/donald-trump-doesnt-want-your-opinion-on-the-media-just-your-money-47b0b511dcd#.hcoqlctz0

[GibbonBlack]

yelling "FiRE!" in a crowded room, or "HI JACK" in an airport, etc.

But what if I haven't seen Jack in forever!?

[Khrz]

Hello or 'sup should do fine!

[Kodiak33]

https://twitter.com/radleybalko/status/834862805148901377

Good times.

[sweeterthan]

https://twitter.com/radleybalko/status/834862805148901377

Good times.

What happened to states rights here? He wants the bigot states to be able shun transgender folks but will punish the states that enacted recreational laws.
More contradictory bullshit from these assholes.

[Deepvoid]

So Trump said the deportation was going to be a military operation. He apparently misspoke. According to Spicy, he meant it will be precise. Military was used as an adjective in this case.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD2ncxaVyTI

Also, raise you hand like a big boy. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URMXUAyClq8)

[onthewall2983]

So Trump said the deportation was going to be a military operation. He apparently misspoke. According to Spicy, he meant it will be precise. Military was used as an adjective in this case.

I can believe that. That Trump would use words like that to describe something, when he means something much more specific. He has a horrible vocabulary, news at 11.

[theimage13]

It DOES have the potential to create a hostile work environment, from a management standpoint.

The less people know about me at work, the better, is my motto. I don't want to eat with them, drink with them, hang out with them, etc. I have gone out to lunch a few times but that's so they don't think I'm secretly planning to kill them, otherwise I don't come to work to socialize; I come to work to WORK, then I go home to my real life and my real family and my real friends. I've seen far too many people get bitten on the ass for bringing their personal lives and opinions to work.

Been there; going back there soon. It sucks. My industry has a lot of great, hard-working and compassionate people...but it's also got a lot of disgusting assholes who make me cringe every time I see or hear them. Depending on the job, I don't have the luxury of avoiding them too much - you work, eat, and live in a small metal box with them. Add politics into the mix and it can get even worse. That's why I show up, be a professional, do my job, and then spend as much time as possible being alone or with people who I would actually consider a "real friend" if we lived in the same city.

[Jinsai]

Let's play "guess who said this crazy shit?!"

“Look, having nuclear—my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart—you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I'm one of the smartest people anywhere in the world—it’s true!—but when you're a conservative Republican they try—oh, do they do a number—that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune—you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged—but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me—it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are (nuclear is powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what's going to happen and he was right—who would have thought?), but when you look at what's going on with the four prisoners—now it used to be three, now it’s four—but when it was three and even now, I would have said it's all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don't, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years—but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us.”

GUESS!!!!!

No.... you might think I'm making this up..... video evidence: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/donald-trumps-rambling-90-second-speech-stuns-english-speaking-world_uk_57ab37d7e4b08ab70dc0f646

[onthewall2983]

The travel press (or "travel opposition party) is reporting a severe drop in tourism to the US (http://www.frommers.com/tips/miscellaneous/the-travel-press-is-reporting-the-trump-slump-a-devastating-drop-in-tourism-to-the-united-states#.WK62DAVJ7xN.facebook)

[theimage13]

The travel press (or "travel opposition party) is reporting a severe drop in tourism to the US (http://www.frommers.com/tips/miscellaneous/the-travel-press-is-reporting-the-trump-slump-a-devastating-drop-in-tourism-to-the-united-states#.WK62DAVJ7xN.facebook)

Further proof that citizens of other countries are smart.

[Louie_Cypher]

it should be stated that I work in cyber security, and a lot of ex-military conservatives, I do not shy away left liberal leanings I said nothing when they found out i was native-ameamerican, and made my feelings known about standing rock, asking me if I was going howling for hair, or smoke'em peace pipe at lunch, or calling me chief straining buttons.

[hellospaceboy]

it should be stated that I work in cyber security, and a lot of ex-military conservatives, I do not shy away left liberal leanings I said nothing when they found out i was native-ameamerican, and made my feelings known about standing rock, asking me if I was going howling for hair, or smoke'em peace pipe at lunch, or calling me chief straining buttons.

That is the very definition of workplace harassment! It's fucked up!

[allegate]

The travel press (or "travel opposition party) is reporting a severe drop in tourism to the US (http://www.frommers.com/tips/miscellaneous/the-travel-press-is-reporting-the-trump-slump-a-devastating-drop-in-tourism-to-the-united-states#.WK62DAVJ7xN.facebook)But he saved 800 jobs, what are you complaining about?

[Louie_Cypher]

90% of my work is remote I don't have don't have to see or deal with anyone on a daily basis I have a sense of humorI thought the chief straining buttons was funny, and a reminder to continue my daily workouts, I apologized and erased the count-down clock from my whiteboard will i continue to call Trump out on his shit Yes! life moves on
-Louie

[Deepvoid]

So the White House decided to block several medias from attending Spicy's briefing. (http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/321049-white-house-hand-picks-select-media-for-briefing)

"CNN, The New York Times, The Hill, Politico, BuzzFeed, the Daily Mail, BBC, the Los Angeles Times and the New York Daily News were among the other news organizations not permitted to attend."

AP and Time Magazine were invited but declined to attend.

Breitbart, Washington Time, One America News were allowed.

[Conan The Barbarian]

That's dictator behavior right there folks. He is such a little whiny bitch and needs to be taken out.

[Jinsai]

So the White House decided to block several medias from attending Spicy's briefing. (http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/321049-white-house-hand-picks-select-media-for-briefing)

"CNN, The New York Times, The Hill, Politico, BuzzFeed, the Daily Mail, BBC, the Los Angeles Times and the New York Daily News were among the other news organizations not permitted to attend."

AP and Time Magazine were invited but declined to attend.

Breitbart, Washington Time, One America News were allowed.

Jesus Christ.... HOW is anyone in this country "ok" with this!?!?!?!

[allegate]

Because "we won" is stronger than "that's morally not right".

[Louie_Cypher]

this is his supporters answer to all his bullshit but-but we won, which even he questions screaming about sources where were your sources, for all that birther shit you talked, where are your tax returns?
-louie

[allegate]

Abortions for some, tiny Trump flags for others. (http://nypost.com/2017/02/24/trump-supporters-unwittingly-wave-russian-flags-at-cpac/)


A political prankster passed out small Russian flags emblazoned with President Trump’s name at the annual Conservative Political Action Conference — where Trump supporters blindly waved the banners during his Friday morning speech (http://nypost.com/2017/02/24/trump-doubles-down-on-fight-with-media-during-cpac-speech/) until they were confiscated, according to online reports.

[theimage13]

Abortions for some, tiny Trump flags for others. (http://nypost.com/2017/02/24/trump-supporters-unwittingly-wave-russian-flags-at-cpac/)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f330/Twotrees517/tumblr_m6vtyzY6Ov1rq4no1o6_250.gif

[Jinsai]

"It's going to get worse every day for the media... If you think they are giving you your country back without a fight, you are sadly mistaken." (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/23/steve-bannons-not-so-subtle-threat-to-the-media/?utm_term=.63f3092a1d5e)

- Steve Bannon

[allegate]

That's...does that kind of read to anyone else that the Trump administration has taken our country away?

[marodi]

The media banning thing; doesn't it go against the First Amendment?

I'm Canadian, remember. I'm still stunned that a man like Trump became President.

[theimage13]

The media banning thing; doesn't it go against the First Amendment?

I'm Canadian, remember. I'm still stunned that a man like Trump became President.

I could be totally wrong here (I very likely am), but I think that the right to a free press simply means that the press can say whatever the hell they wanted and the government can't take legal action against them. I don't believe it guarantees the press access to anything (such as Spicey's "gaggle" or whatever bullshit that was today). If that sort of rule exists, I would imagine it was legislation passed at a later time.

[Louie_Cypher]

everyone needs to watch this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)
you may think marijuana laws were getting better guess again
-louie

[Louie_Cypher]

with all the chaos going on they are quietly taking away your freedom away trump just rescinded an Obama law restricting tax dollars DOJ going to private prisons guess what for-profit prisons need? Prisoners guess what fascist regime do imprison political opponents, if you're a felon you can't vote can't own a gun, good luck getting a job ask pussy riot they know how it works
god help me sounding like Alex jones
-Louie

[Louie_Cypher]

it's like religion when something good happens it's God's hand when it's bad it's evil or the devil's influence, all hail the wondrous and almighty trump
-Louie

[Aladdinsanity]

Tom Perez is awarded the position of chairman of DNC via votes from status quo lobbyists who act as though corporations need their feelings protected from being vilified and that we lost the election because we weren't central enough... in contrast to the Republicans who won riding on the back of a man who represents some of worst neo-fascist tendencies the conservative platform has to offer.

Oh, and they also voted against a ban on corporate donations because Hillary didn't get nearly enough fundraising to win the election and why win elections when you can be a lapdog shill and be given every financial advantage in the private sector regardless of who is in the White House? Here's to hoping the country still exists after Trump leaves office in 2025.

[Louie_Cypher]

several Syrian's who are nominated can't attend oscar's
Louie

[Deepvoid]

Tom Perez is awarded the position of chairman of DNC via votes from status quo lobbyists who act as though corporations need their feelings protected from being vilified and that we lost the election because we weren't central enough... in contrast to the Republicans who won riding on the back of a man who represents some of worst neo-fascist tendencies the conservative platform has to offer.

Oh, and they also voted against a ban on corporate donations because Hillary didn't get nearly enough fundraising to win the election and why win elections when you can be a lapdog shill and be given every financial advantage in the private sector regardless of who is in the White House? Here's to hoping the country still exists after Trump leaves office in 2025.

Yeah the DNC still looks clueless.

[allegro]

So this happened yesterday in NYC. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/24/politics/obama-coffee-new-york/?iid=ob_lockedrail_bottomlist)

[Aladdinsanity]

If George Carlin were alive today, he could do this same exact bit almost word-for-word and it would ring truer today than it did when this was originally recorded.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKUaqFzZLxU

[theimage13]

And in a move that surprises approximately zero people, 45 announces (https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomnamako/trump-skipping-whca?utm_term=.oqrB4jbAN#.fkEYWlwG7) that he's too thin skinned to attend the annual correspondents' dinner.

[Exocet]

Maybe because I don't think that there's anything wrong with being Muslim, to me these are not scary numbers...

Being Muslim doesn't mean you didn't integrate into a culture. My wife is a nurse, and the hospital she works at has 40% Muslim doctors. They're people, just like anyone else. Some are fantastic, some are not. My favorite ice cream shop is owned/run by a Muslim family. Wearing a hijab doesn't mean that you didn't learn the local culture. It's fine. The ladies behind the counter make the ice cream with a hijab on. So what? They're just as American as the white people buying their ice cream.

Hey man...the Major of my city is a Muslim...my city has 15 Million people....his name is Sadiq Kahn ...he is a wonderful guy..he has a strong chance of being the next Prime minister of the UK...

He tolerates no radical islamic bullshit and is progressive....

Its not about blaming muslims...but if you want to live in the real world..you will admit like Sadiq Kahn would that there is a major problem in the islamic world....80 Percent of all terror attacks in 2016 were islamic related in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Nigeria..

[Louie_Cypher]

incompetent man-child idiot
-Louie

[allegro]

80 Percent of all terror attacks in 2016 were islamic related in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Nigeria..

And look what's going on, there (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-16047709).

[aggroculture]

Worth reading: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage

[WorzelG]

Worth reading: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage

This makes me glad I've always avoided doing any of those personality tests on Facebook. Really Facebook and Google should do something about this, they're the only ones who can

[allegro]

allegro super OT but I take back the potential for decent tech cred I gave McAfee. I had a back and for with him over the last few days that started online. I ended up just trolling because of how silly it was. The dude mistook some RFID tags on his hotel towels and pillow cases for microphones. He stuck to it after I pointed out how insane he was being. It was hilarious but also disappointing.

He would still make for a better president than the others in this cycle though :p

What fucking fancy hotel was he in where they RFIDd the fucking pillow cases and towels?? Holy shit. Those are some valuable towels.

Yes he has been overly paranoid for a long time and he's too full of himself to be truly any better than Trump. He might be a good advisor once in a while as to cyber security but that's about it. He's cute but that is not an electable quality. And cute + nuts = nah.

[Jinsai]

Sweden newly confused by the person appearing on Fox as "Swedish Security Advisor," since nobody in their government knows who he is... because apparently he's been living in the US since 1994 and has no position in the Swedish government...

Countdown till Trump tweets about all the fascinating stuff he said on Fox...

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/02/25/fox-news-interviews-unknown-swedish-security-advisor-crime-debate

[allegro]

This makes me glad I've always avoided doing any of those personality tests on Facebook. Really Facebook and Google should do something about this, they're the only ones who can

Tracking via Facebook is why I HATE Facebook.

That article is interesting. Not too long ago, I Googled some shit about Obama that was appearing in Instagram comments, something I'd never seen, and I wanted to see if it had any validity. The search resulted in PAGES AND PAGES of right wing sources going on about this allegation, none of them very recognizable or credible, with not ONE main stream media source and no centrist to liberal sources. None. I thought at least one would address these allegations and I sincerely doubt it's a liberal coverup. These right wing sources are clearly taking advantage of Google search algorithms which are no longer solely dependent on keywords.

[allegro]

That was actually he point being that it was some hotel in Romania. Thing is, at most, it's for keep a general account of theft. But more often it's for sorting laundry when it all gets shipped off to a service where multiple companies send their stuff.

But why did they need RFID? That's overkill for laundry. RFID is like laundry LOJACK. "We located our stolen wash cloth in a cottage near the mountains. Alert the authorities!!" Most hotels just allow for loss or they charge guests or the laundry service for big missing items. Theft is why the Four Seasons doesn't put their name or logo on valuable room items. Tracking them by radio frequency is stupid, but I digress.

[theimage13]

google - The open of this article was dumb. The author went to search for something and was offended that google gave them exactly what they were looking for. Google isn't your phone's autocomplete text. It's not telling you what to think. Yet, that's what the opening of this article implies and acts like the results are a problem. Google is trying to give you exactly what you are looking for. It uses info about what other people have been looking for and HOW they have been looking for it. It looks at the exact phrases being used and so many other factors. And it's constantly changing. And who the fuck would go to google and start off with "the mainstream media is..." and hope to learn about how super cool awesome responsible and important the MAINSTREAM MEDIA is? How many people seriously are searching like that? lol

I don't know what the hell you're talking about, because you keep contradicting yourself. "Google isn't your phone's autocorrect" - but also "google is trying to give you exactly what you are looking for".

Pick one.

If I were to type in "[x] is..." in a search engine, I would be doing so because I am looking for a objective information, perhaps a definition, of [x]. I'm looking for facts first, so that I may then form my own opinion. I'm not looking for someone else's opinion first. I get that the results will include comments about the subjective status of [x], but not as the top result. To clarify:

If I type in "mainstream media is..." I want to be told WHAT it is, objectively. I want to be told that "mainstream media" is a phrase for longstanding, established news outlets that have been in existence for decades. I want to be told that these are outlets that are staffed by people who studied at journalism school. I want to be told that they rely on a set of established criteria, such as multiple sources, before deciding something is fit to publish. I want to be told that they actively seek to set aside personal bias, to the best of their ability, and report on ALL sides of a story. I want to be told that they do not have mission statements that include "exposing the left / right bias of other so-called news".

But that's not what Google did. When he typed in "mainstream media is...", Google took the liberty of saying it is dead. It is dying. It is fake. It is fake news. That's all that it told him.

THAT IS NOT AN OBJECTIVE SEARCH.

Does it reflect what many people are currently talking about? Yes, it does. But that's all speculation. It's subjective. It's people's opinions. When I go to the single largest reference desk on the fucking planet, I want the top results to my searches to be pure, objective facts that match my search criteria - not a computer's guess or opinion. If I walked into the library tomorrow and asked the reference librarian where to find maps of local hiking trails, I would expect him / her to tell me where those maps are. I would not expect the reply to be "the hiking around here is terrible". I would expect the information I requested. After looking at the maps I was provided, I might then go back and ask them for their opinion of the local trails. But that's only after I've looked at the objective information I asked for.

[Louie_Cypher]

look up three gods logic
-louie

[allegro]

items 1, 2, 3, and 4: http://blog.atlasrfidstore.com/what-can-rfid-laundry-tracking-do
it's a big business now and it cuts down on a lot of the operational cost of even basic things like computer-based laundry sorting when you are laundering huge amounts every single day and would otherwise have to employ multiple people to do that and this is a run-on sentence.

Wow thanks, that article is REALLY interesting! It seems like it would be expensive, though; like maybe too expensive for nursing homes (which are NOTORIOUSLY TERRIBLE AT DOING AND SORTING HOUSE AND PATIENT LAUNDRY).

[WorzelG]

I don't think any mainstream media sources are actually unbiased either. Newspapers like the Daily Mail are mainstream and laughably biased towards a certain demographic. To that end, why did Trump ban the Daily Mail from his White House thing, home of Piers Morgan and Katie Hopkins i'd say it was on message

[telee.kom]

But that's not what Google did. When he typed in "mainstream media is...", Google took the liberty of saying it is dead. It is dying. It is fake. It is fake news. That's all that it told him.


That's all algorithm, you can't really fault Google for what people are searching for, otherwise you are asking for censorship

[Deepvoid]

Looks like Trump's budget will increase defense spending by $54B while cutting non-defense spending by same. (http://thehill.com/policy/defense/321315-trump-budget-to-boost-defense-spending-by-54b)

Are you guys preparing for war or something? That looks like a hefty increase in defense spending.

Edit: I am wondering if Trump is dumb enough to start a war just to prove his point that the US has the biggest military.

"We never win wars anymore. We never fight to win. We have to start winning wars again."
https://twitter.com/RawStory/status/836241915418849282

[Louie_Cypher]

republican health plan be rich or die
-louie

[Louie_Cypher]

let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised
-louie

[Sarah K]

"I consider the media to be indispensable to democracy. We need an independent media to hold people like me to account. Power can be very addictive, and it can be corrosive, and it's important for the media to call to account people who abuse their power. Whether it be here or elsewhere. One of the things that I spent a lot of time doing was trying to convince a person like Vladimir Putin, for example, to accept the notion of an independent press. And it's kinda hard to tell others to have an independent, free press when we're not willing to have one ourselves."

2017. George W. Bush as a voice of reason. Wat.

http://www.today.com/video/george-w-bush-on-president-trump-putin-religious-freedom-immigration-more-885676611701

[Jinsai]

I don't think any mainstream media sources are actually unbiased either. Newspapers like the Daily Mail are mainstream and laughably biased towards a certain demographic. To that end, why did Trump ban the Daily Mail from his White House thing, home of Piers Morgan and Katie Hopkins i'd say it was on message

Melania is threatening the Daily Mail with a huge lawsuit for running a story about her being a sex worker or something...

Regardless, it's meant to send a message. Trump's team loves misinformation and tabloid trash, just not when it's launched at them. It's Trump saying "let's get things nice and sparkling clear here..." to tabloids in general.

[Dra508]

Looks like Trump's budget will increase defense spending by $54B while cutting non-defense spending by same. (http://thehill.com/policy/defense/321315-trump-budget-to-boost-defense-spending-by-54b)

Are you guys preparing for war or something? That looks like a hefty increase in defense spending.

Edit: I am wondering if Trump is dumb enough to start a war just to prove his point that the US has the biggest military.

"We never win wars anymore. We never fight to win. We have to start winning wars again."
https://twitter.com/RawStory/status/836241915418849282

Let's be clear: defense spending IS a jobs program full stop.

[sick among the pure]

Let's be clear: defense spending IS a jobs program full stop.

That's akin to saying arts spending IS a jobs program. Yes, it pays people to do a specific job, but that's not the purpose of it. This money isn't being allocated to military spending because it'll give people jobs.
Literally ALL government spending is a "jobs program" because it means paying a person of group of people to do a thing, which is their job, because they're getting paid to do it.

[Dra508]

That's akin to saying arts spending IS a jobs program. Yes, it pays people to do a specific job, but that's not the purpose of it. This money isn't being allocated to military spending because it'll give people jobs.
Literally ALL government spending is a "jobs program" because it means paying a person of group of people to do a thing, which is their job, because they're getting paid to do it.
I'm not saying that it's wrong that government uses the money to build defense while increasing employment. No different, to me, then infrastructure programs. I'd like to think arts programs enrich society too.

[allegate]

Let's be clear: defense spending IS a jobs program full stop.I'd much rather the CCC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps) at this point.

[allegro]

I'd much rather the CCC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps) at this point.

I've been saying that for years; that kind of program, with technical training and manual labor with good pay, instead of the constant (unrealistic) focus on the often-impossible and debt-crushing college education, would help inner city kids, decrease crime, help people in rural communities, etc.

[sick among the pure]

I'm not saying that it's wrong that government uses the money to build defense while increasing employment. No different, to me, then infrastructure programs. I'd like to think arts programs enrich society too.

But to call it a "jobs program" is simply a terrible false analogy. Like I said, you could call ANY government spending "a jobs program" because ANY government spending means paying a person or persons for a service, aka, a job.

[allegro]

For Trump, who wants to "bring back jobs," it absolutely could be a way to increase jobs where he take total credit for it. It's not a GOOD method, because of the cost, obviously (financial and human). But, he doesn't care; he's kowtowing to the Republicans and his base.

It's a pretty common capitalist economic belief that war "creates jobs." As does increased defense. As Dra508 said, from a government spending and job-creation standpoint, defense is no different than infrastructure.

Anyway, increasing defense spending isn't just a Trump goal, it's been a HUGE Republican goal for, shit, ever. And ever since it was disclosed that Russia's nuclear stockpile is way bigger than ours, military people have been pissed off; we had an agreement to stop the nuclear arms race, but Russia has thrown that out the window.

[allegro]

Also, it's a really common notion, especially among the older generations that survived World Wars etc., that "this country needs a war to help the economy." And to bolster patriotism (https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/ambrosebie143708.html).

See this: "America needs a new war or capitalism dies (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/america-needs-a-new-war-or-capitalism-dies-2013-04-17)"

See also Post-World War II Economic Expansion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_economic_expansion).

See also (https://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-american-economy-during-world-war-ii/):


For the United States, World War II and the Great Depression constituted the most important economic event of the twentieth century. The war’s effects were varied and far-reaching. The war decisively ended the depression itself. The federal government emerged from the war as a potent economic actor, able to regulate economic activity and to partially control the economy through spending and consumption. American industry was revitalized by the war, and many sectors were by 1945 either sharply oriented to defense production (for example, aerospace and electronics) or completely dependent on it (atomic energy). The organized labor movement, strengthened by the war beyond even its depression-era height, became a major counterbalance to both the government and private industry. The war’s rapid scientific and technological changes continued and intensified trends begun during the Great Depression and created a permanent expectation of continued innovation on the part of many scientists, engineers, government officials and citizens. Similarly, the substantial increases in personal income and frequently, if not always, in quality of life during the war led many Americans to foresee permanent improvements to their material circumstances, even as others feared a postwar return of the depression. Finally, the war’s global scale severely damaged every major economy in the world except for the United States, which thus enjoyed unprecedented economic and political power after 1945.


War Bonds

All told, taxes provided about $136.8 billion of the war’s total cost of $304 billion (Kennedy, 625). To cover the other $167.2 billion, the Treasury Department also expanded its bond program, creating the famous “war bonds” hawked by celebrities and purchased in vast numbers and enormous values by Americans. The first war bond was purchased by President Roosevelt on May 1, 1941 (“Introduction to Savings Bonds”). Though the bonds returned only 2.9 percent annual interest after a 10-year maturity, they nonetheless served as a valuable source of revenue for the federal government and an extremely important investment for many Americans. Bonds served as a way for citizens to make an economic contribution to the war effort, but because interest on them accumulated slower than consumer prices rose, they could not completely preserve income which could not be readily spent during the war. By the time war-bond sales ended in 1946, 85 million Americans had purchased more than $185 billion worth of the securities, often through automatic deductions from their paychecks (“Brief History of World War Two Advertising Campaigns: War Loans and Bonds”). Commercial institutions like banks also bought billions of dollars of bonds and other treasury paper, holding more than $24 billion at the war’s end (Kennedy, 626).

http://www.ohwy.com/history%20pictures/bondpost.gif https://www.treasurydirect.gov/timeline-assets/images/large/1943_rockwell.jpg

[Louie_Cypher]

better explained the broken window: http://economics.about.com/od/output-income-prices/a/The-Broken-Window-Fallacy.html
-Louie

[allegro]

better explained the broken window: http://economics.about.com/od/output-income-prices/a/The-Broken-Window-Fallacy.html
-Louie

Your link is broken, see this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

But it has criticisms:


The interpretations assume that the "window" has positive value and that replacing it is not a good investment. In the broader scope, offsetting factors can reduce or even negate the cost of destruction. For example, new technologies developed during a war and forced modernization during postwar reconstruction can cause old technologies to become valueless. Also, if two shopkeepers keep their "window" beyond the point where it would maximize their profit, the shopkeeper whose window is broken is forced to make a good investment – increasing his comparative profit, or rather, reducing his comparative loss. Regardless, while wanton destruction of real value may not be a net loss, it is of course still a misfortune, not a blessing. Others argue that the broken window may not result in reduction of spending by the victim, but rather, a reduction in excessive savings. "The logic of limited resources only applies when the economy is using most of those limited resources. If there are slack resources, we need merely mobilize some of the slack resources."[who said this?] The reductio ad absurdum of breaking 100 windows, then, applies only when underutilised resources have been used, and the tailor is forced to divert resources from more productive means.

It has been argued that the parable, while intuitive, may not correspond to actual evidence. For instance, some economists argue that natural disasters can often result in improved growth in both the short and long term.

[Louie_Cypher]

I guess I would rather see things like education and health care things other than killing people who pray to a different god than I do
-Louie

[Dra508]

For Trump, who wants to "bring back jobs," it absolutely could be a way to increase jobs where he take total credit for it. It's not a GOOD method, because of the cost, obviously (financial and human). But, he doesn't care; he's kowtowing to the Republicans and his base.

It's a pretty common capitalist economic belief that war "creates jobs." As does increased defense. As Dra508 said, from a government spending and job-creation standpoint, defense is no different than infrastructure.

Anyway, increasing defense spending isn't just a Trump goal, it's been a HUGE Republican goal for, shit, ever. And ever since it was disclosed that Russia's nuclear stockpile is way bigger than ours, military people have been pissed off; we had an agreement to stop the nuclear arms race, but Russia has thrown that out the window.

What she said.

[allegro]

I guess I would rather see things like education and health care things other than killing people who pray to a different god than I do
-Louie

I think the increase in defense spending is just that: DEFENSE spending. Not OFFENSE spending. We are not currently in an actual "war" anywhere, nor is it likely based on current circumstances or events. But Republicans believe in a large standing armed forces and stockpiled equipment for preparedness and a show of strength. The Dems believe in spending only as needed. It's a philosophical difference not solely based on hawkish or imperialist idiology. It's a reaction to various recent events, including North Korea launching test missiles, Russia threatening nearby regions, China flexing its military muscles, and Iran pushing the nuclear envelope, etc.

McCain and the Republican military gang are currently bitching that Trump didn't raise the defense budget ENOUGH.

We all pray to the same God. God's name is just different. But the idea that this country is out to kill a bunch of Muslims just for being Muslim is erroneous.

[allegate]

For Trump, who wants to "bring back jobs," it absolutely could be a way to increase jobs where he take total credit for it. It's not a GOOD method, because of the cost, obviously (financial and human). But, he doesn't care; he's kowtowing to the Republicans and his base.

It's a pretty common capitalist economic belief that war "creates jobs." As does increased defense. As @Dra508 (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=101) said, from a government spending and job-creation standpoint, defense is no different than infrastructure.

Anyway, increasing defense spending isn't just a Trump goal, it's been a HUGE Republican goal for, shit, ever. And ever since it was disclosed that Russia's nuclear stockpile is way bigger than ours, military people have been pissed off; we had an agreement to stop the nuclear arms race, but Russia has thrown that out the window.

Does it really matter who has the bigger stockpile other than a numbers game? It's men and penises but on a 'I'm going to blow up the whole world" kind of way.

[Jinsai]

and instead of pursuing a rollback in our outrageous collection of nuclear arms, Trump is promising to make America the most nuclear-having country in the world again.

FFS, I think we're going to look back at these insane meandering speeches, where he says things like "why shouldn't be on good terms with Russia?" and "The Russia thing is ridiculous" and saying oh, how we would be getting along so well with Russia if the media would just let him... We have over 4,000 nukes. We used to have over 30,000. 4000 is still enough to wipe out all life on this planet pretty much, though, so why the hell would we want or need more?!

[Deepvoid]

We have over 4,000 nukes. We used to have over 30,000. 4000 is still enough to wipe out all life on this planet pretty much, though, so why the hell would we want or need more?!

Not according to this guy...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH61bfttkDc

[Louie_Cypher]

war has no long term roi's it's not sustainable
-louie

[allegro]

and instead of pursuing a rollback in our outrageous collection of nuclear arms, Trump is promising to make America the most nuclear-having country in the world again.

FFS, I think we're going to look back at these insane meandering speeches, where he says things like "why shouldn't be on good terms with Russia?" and "The Russia thing is ridiculous" and saying oh, how we would be getting along so well with Russia if the media would just let him... We have over 4,000 nukes. We used to have over 30,000. 4000 is still enough to wipe out all life on this planet pretty much, though, so why the hell would we want or need more?!

The huge budget increase for modernization and increasing of nuclear weapons started during the Obama administration. It went largely unnoticed. I've linked articles in here already. Just an FYI.

[Jinsai]

The huge budget increase for modernization and increasing of nuclear weapons started during the Obama administration. It went largely unnoticed. I've linked articles in here already. Just an FYI.

I just don't understand the rationale behind getting more nukes. If we were ever to arrive at the horrifying juncture in history where we would have expended a nuclear arsenal that size, I don't think anyone who survived would want to live on this planet anymore.

Regarding Obama and the previous administration's approach to nuclear weapons, I honestly don't know concretely how that went. I read some articles saying he was ramping up the arsenal, and others saying he was dialing it back. I would look into it again for clarification, but it doesn't change how I feel about it, and at this point I guess it doesn't matter. We're where we're at now.

[allegro]

I just don't understand the rationale behind getting more nukes. If we were ever to arrive at the horrifying juncture in history where we would have expended a nuclear arsenal that size, I don't think anyone who survived would want to live on this planet anymore.

Regarding Obama and the previous administration's approach to nuclear weapons, I honestly don't know concretely how that went. I read some articles saying he was ramping up the arsenal, and others saying he was dialing it back. I would look into it again for clarification, but it doesn't change how I feel about it, and at this point I guess it doesn't matter. We're where we're at now.

Here is a good article. (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-12-23/trump-s-nuclear-boast-is-obama-s-modernization-plan)

Here is the current status. (https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Nuclearweaponswhohaswhat)

[Jinsai]

this is a surprisingly interesting thing I stumbled on
the intro is kind of rambling, but the follow up videos are interesting


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrTtjgI4PVk

[Louie_Cypher]

someone last night call trump a "cheeto", good name,
-louie

[Exocet]

I honestly dont think Palestine will survive a few more decades if not this administration...it will be gone soon....

At least then the Israel/Palestine conflict will be over??????

In the Western world its all about nationalism.. protecting democracy...from invaders...the right wing of Israel is seen favourably..as from the islamic barbarians....
Radical right wing groups protecting European soveignity will continue to emerge...
As what was inevitable after the myopic decision Angela Merkel took.

[Jinsai]

Jeff Sessions now also tied to Russian communique that he did not disclose during his approval hearing. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/sessions-spoke-twice-with-russian-ambassador-during-trumps-presidential-campaign-justice-officials-say/2017/03/01/77205eda-feac-11e6-99b4-9e613afeb09f_story.html?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.67f7b7e301b0#comments)

[sick among the pure]

I can tell this whole mess is going to go in history books, I know there are people here who know more than me so far as the history of elections/presidency/administrations, has anything this big (even if his ties end up being nothing and this whole Russian thing is a non-issue from here forward) ever happened? This just seems so huge and unreal to me, having only been old enough to remember from Clinton forward.

[Jinsai]

I can tell this whole mess is going to go in history books, I know there are people here who know more than me so far as the history of elections/presidency/administrations, has anything this big (even if his ties end up being nothing and this whole Russian thing is a non-issue from here forward) ever happened? This just seems so huge and unreal to me, having only been old enough to remember from Clinton forward.

I guess it depends on who you ask... for people who believe "9/11 was an inside job," their claims are definitely more serious (and also generally nonsense).

But yeah, this is really crazy.

[Louie_Cypher]

I smell obstruction of justice, or Nixon called and want's his job back
-Louie

[theimage13]

I guess it depends on who you ask... for people who believe "9/11 was an inside job," their claims are definitely more serious (and also generally nonsense).

But yeah, this is really crazy.

But 9/11 WAS an inside job. Trump did it.

(/sarcasm)

I do think this will be studied in history books in the future. We elected a reality TV star with no political experience to one of the most powerful offices in the world, and there's evidence that it's partly due to Russian influence. How would that NOT make it into textbooks?

[Jinsai]

I do think this will be studied in history books in the future. We elected a reality TV star with no political experience to one of the most powerful offices in the world, and there's evidence that it's partly due to Russian influence. How would that NOT make it into textbooks?

Of course it will make history books... it'll be the first time a tweet makes history... "All negative polls are fake news" will make the history books.

[Deepvoid]

Jeff Sessions now also tied to Russian communique that he did not disclose during his approval hearing. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/sessions-spoke-twice-with-russian-ambassador-during-trumps-presidential-campaign-justice-officials-say/2017/03/01/77205eda-feac-11e6-99b4-9e613afeb09f_story.html?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.67f7b7e301b0#comments)

What a mess ... The worst part is nothing will happen. I don't think anyone else is getting fired. Especially not Sessions. He's a pillar of Trump's administration.

[baudolino]

The whole political system of the USA became less than a farce in a few weeks. It is beyond embarrasing and not excusable anymore. As if open conspiracies are any better than hidden ones.
Its like watching a dynamic which can't be stopped by humans. maybe an emergent phenomena of post-capitalist societies. full factorization into very confined echochambers/noospheric landscapes.

[Louie_Cypher]

What a mess ... The worst part is nothing will happen. I don't think anyone else is getting fired. Especially not Sessions. He's a pillar of Trump's administration. I think some of the worst victims are ms victims of con and fraud, because the have to admit they were dumb enough to fall for it, will americans be willing to admit they were so thoroughly duped
-Louie

[GulDukat]

Is Trumpism the new punk rock?
http://theweek.com/articles/682416/trumpism-new-punk-rock

What?

[miss k bee]

Alternative news

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/03/busted-again-fox-caught-using-militant-nazi-collaborator-as-expert-on-swedish-violence/ (http://www.rawstory.com/2017/03/busted-again-fox-caught-using-militant-nazi-collaborator-as-expert-on-swedish-violence/?comments=disqus)

[Jinsai]

What a mess ... The worst part is nothing will happen. I don't think anyone else is getting fired. Especially not Sessions. He's a pillar of Trump's administration.

Well, today he recused himself of the Russia inquiry, so that's something at least. He should absolutely be removed rom office, but this is his appeal to side-step being forced to resign.

Roger Stone, one of the others on Trump's team accused of improper meetings with Russian officials, said on February 15th that “The president should tell his attorney general that either he finds proof of this, or he puts it to bed and announces none of it happened.”

We'll never get to the bottom of this, naturally, but connecting the dots there is making me feel like a conspiracy theorist.

[implanted_microchip]

Hey guys remember how supposedly having a private email server for government work was worthy of imprisonment?

Yeah so are we gonna all wear Pence for Prison shirts now or ... ?

http://hill.cm/5WBlqsM

[hellospaceboy]

Of course this is the "anything can happen" presidency, but I do believe that this Russian scandal will cripple Trump's term in office.

[allegro]

I'd totally vote for Oprah.

Just sayin'.

Although, Gayle King says it ain't happening so forget it. Oh well.

[sweeterthan]

I'd vote for Oprah. I totally trust her. She wouldn't help the Duggars. That's enough for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jinsai]

What should he go to prison for? The biggest prison-worthy issue with Hillary was her sending classified info. Do we really think a governor is going to be emailing classified docs? Like... really? You think a governor has a stack of TS/SCI docs at hand?

It's a point about hypocrisy, which is something you seem to like to call out democrats for. I know you like to play devil's advocate here, but the point holds.
I don't think Pence should be locked up for this. I also think the Clinton email thing was ludicrous harping on an issue that most people who were outspoken about had little to no understanding of.

[Jinsai]

It's not unless you demonstrate the hypocrisy. So far it hasn't been demonstrated. There is no parallel to "Hillary for prison"

There were also plenty of republican private email servers before Hillary and they had few parallels.

If you have no idea what is going on, all you see is "private email server" and that's all that registers in your head. Seems to be the case here?

The issue with most of the initial criticism of Clinton's email-handling was related to her poor judgement - to infer that she was sloppily unqualified to handle sensitive information that would need to be secured. Pence used this opportunity to call her "the most dishonest candidate for president of the united states since Richard Nixon." Meanwhile, he was using a fucking AOL account to read and respond to FBI reports on terrorism and national security, and then that email account is hacked.

I mean, if you don't see anything there that could be called "hypocrisy," I would suggest that you might be enjoying some semantic gymnastics.

[Louie_Cypher]

get's even deeper i guess the alt-right can say fun while it lasted
-Louie

[Louie_Cypher]

What should he go to prison for? The biggest prison-worthy issue with Hillary was her sending classified info. Do we really think a governor is going to be emailing classified docs? Like... really? You think a governor has a stack of TS/SCI docs at hand? yes
-louie

[theimage13]

I'd totally vote for Oprah.

Just sayin'.

Although, Gayle King says it ain't happening so forget it. Oh well.

The headline I saw about that story said "President Oprah?"

IT WOULD BE PRESIDENT WINFREY, YOU FUCKING MORON. WE DIDN'T JUST HAVE PRESIDENT BARACK, PRESIDENT GEORGE, AND PRESIDENT BILL. LAST NAMES, PEOPLE. LAST NAMES.

Sorry. Tired and cranky and angry at journalists who suck at even the tiniest and least important parts of their jobs.

As you were.

[implanted_microchip]

What should he go to prison for? The biggest prison-worthy issue with Hillary was her sending classified info. Do we really think a governor is going to be emailing classified docs? Like... really? You think a governor has a stack of TS/SCI docs at hand?

I swear to god that arguing with me in a condescending way is your fetish or something
Jinsai basically already explained it. I don't think either of them belong in prison for it. But what I do think is that Pence and all of those InfoWars-shirt-wearing lunatics that chanted shit like "lock her up" over it and acted as though her judgment was inherently flawed and that she couldn't be depended on to "keep our secrets safe" were/are total fucking hypocrites for not caring about this.

Way before anyone even knew what was on that server, it was being brought up in primary debates and the news was covering it basically 24/7, aside from the occasional break to show us the next Trump rally. Pence and Trump and almost every Republican around came out to condemn it and act as though her having a private server was a thoroughly disqualifying and even prison-worthy happening. Now we find out that Pence had the exact same thing and they couldn't give a shit, and why? Because he's not Hillary Clinton, that's why.

[Exocet]

Why is the US media so obsessed with Russia..im not sure what to make of these constant accusations....

I dont want to make Russia the victim at all..its malicious, ruthless, nasty..its not a friend...im sure they tried to influence the election...but the depths to which they did....im not sure..

But there has been no evidence of any Russian involvement...ever since Trump won few months ago..its been non stop Russia...

I agree they need to investigate..because you cannot trust Russia...but nothing has come up so far...

Its starting to look desperate..

[Jinsai]

But there has been no evidence of any Russian involvement...

What are you talking about?!

[Exocet]

What are you talking about?!

the email leaks were not released by Russia they were released by a whistleblower within the DNC...

Craig Murray former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan has met the whistleblower who gave the files to Wikileaks..

other than those podesta email leaks.. what else has put Russia in the frame???

They obviously used their propaganda but what else?

[Jinsai]

well, right now we could be looking at trying Sessions with perjury, which is a huge deal. We have Flynn resigning upon the discovery that he was not forthcoming about his communications with Russia. For some reason, the top brass of this administration is playing coy about the whole thing, first denying any communications with Russia, and then moving on to wash their hands of cabinet members who were found to have communicated with Russia. Then yesterday this article came out (https://www.wsj.com/articles/jeff-sessions-used-political-funds-for-republican-convention-expenses-1488509301)

It all looks suspicious. Trump is acting suspicious. If it turns out that Trump and his campaign were in any way conspiring with Russia to influence our election in any way, that's a huge deal. I don't understand how anyone could look at how suspicious this is and say "what's the big deal?" Trump already invited Russia to hack Hilary Clinton on a public stage. This goes beyond perjury if it turns out to be true.

[Jinsai]

An opinion piece from Fox News? Let me go fetch a response from Huffington Post or Occupy Democrats.

[Louie_Cypher]

i hope this iseen and read really scary: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/306580-washington-republican-floats-charging-protesters-with-economic-terrorism
there's a prison to fill
-louie

[sweeterthan]

According to trump on twitter, Obama tapped trump tower phones before the elections. He of course provides no sources and no other information.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[allegro]

According to trump on twitter, Obama tapped trump tower phones before the elections. He of course provides no sources and no other information.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He got the info from Breitfart and they got the info from Mark Levin who wrote and is promoting his Trump book. And then I spent about 20 minutes reading the COMMENTS on the Bretfart post, where people are accusing Obama of having gay affairs during golf trips, and having threesomes with Michelle and Valerie Jarrett, both of whom they think are true "witches" who are casting spells, and they want Obama imprisoned in Gitmo for being a treasonous Muslim, and when posters go against them they site Soros as having paid them. holy crap I didn't know those nutjobs were so plentiful.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/03/03/mark-levin-obama-used-police-state-tactics-undermine-trump/

[Jinsai]

holy crap I didn't know those nutjobs were so plentiful.

I had that terrifying moment of realization sometime around when the "pizza gate" scandal landed... I just sat there, reading everything twice in disbelief, and just not knowing what to think. Of course, I always knew there were crazy people in this country. There's crazy people everywhere...

I had no idea how many angry and REALLY crazy people there were in this country. See, that's why I still don't get why Trump won. I was "out of touch" with the fucking crazy people.