Marilyn Manson - Born Villain

[bobbie solo]

why are you torturing yourself with all those shows, Coheed excluded?

[Space Suicide]

So I just asked Daisy on how he knew about Manson's and Twiggy's "deteriorating" relationship. Apparently, as much shit he talks about Manson in the press, he still texts him every once and a while.

Believe what you want to believe.

I believe it. I'm sure they keep in touch often but not as much as led on. Neither man is the other's favorite but this long since 1996 I'd imagine they exchange hellos and what's up as that old piss take grudge is old as dirt and not worth holding onto. His posts on Facebook are quite amusing, nostalgic and overall pretty level-headed but he does come off bitter a lot of the time. Maybe it's how he words things and goes about it. I'm all for criticism from him, let's be honest he did co-found the band way back in 1989 with Manson. Even though he's not a part of it and would have done things different, it's amusing and refreshing to hear his take on what's good and what's bad and have an overall unbiased opinion.

I'm not even gonna lie, post-Holy Wood I'd take Portrait of an American Family over any other album on any given day of the week.

I think Scott would've kept the band's look and sound more camp and light-heartedly depraved. Manson on the other hand went onto more arching themes, concepts and a darker look than what the band ever experienced in their starting years. That Smells Like Children Tour with all it's shit, backstage shenanigans, drug binges and Tony Wiggins fiascos really shaped and molded the band to darker, bizarre territories. That is still evident in the current work but a lot more mediocre and a lot more safe.

[Hazekiah]

Hazekiah is trying to say he didn't mean to say Trent INTENTIONALLY lost the tapes (except he didn't specifically say that). But I'm not picking this up because accroding to hiim I can't read... as in read minds, or between the lines? certainly not read what he's written, because he didn't specify.

For your own sake, I truly hope you're just being willfully fucking ignorant by now.

My precise point has been stated and restated and clarified and explicated numerous goddamned times in the last few pages, by not only myself and with jessamineny's graciously contributed assistance but even by fucking october_goddamned_midnight, who otherwise can't seem to resist the urge to troll the fuck out of me anywhere else I post. If even HE can see and understand what's been CLEARLY stated as my position here then I trust it's been made blatantly explicit by now.

Jesus FUCK, don't even try to tell me I haven't been specific enough when even one of the biggest assholes on the board AND a neutral party were BOTH able to read and understand exactly what I'd written straight-away and right off the bat without needing their fucking hands held like a child.

Goddamn, how many times have we gone over this by now? Let's see...

Reznor's spent his ENTIRE CAREER bitching about record labels interfering with and destroying his art, yet whether through sins of omission or commission -- depending on his level of involvement -- he is ultimately responsible for EXACTLY that. Could've been deliberate, could've been negligence, could've been someone else...but it happened under HIS roof and under HIS watch.

Since the point seems to have been steadfastly missed repeatedly, I say again that I'm simply holding Reznor responsible for what happened on his watch and under his roof, regardless of whether or not he himself was personally responsible for the disappearance of the masters. He's obviously a person of interest in the matter, but that's a separate matter from the primary point I was making.

If you go back and read his initial post, @Hazekiah certainly didn't say it was categorically TR's fault. What he wrote boils down to: As a co-owner of Nothing, TR was responsible for safeguarding those assets. Period.

For example (working off your post)... If TR did "give the masters to a storage company" or hire someone to "look after the studio," it was his job to make sure those agents were sound choices. If those agents failed in their job, the failure ultimately falls at his feet. It's just the way things work for professionals. Just like it would have been his job to ensure the security for such precious assets from theft. His job to design (or delegate and then approve) a storage environment safe from fire and flood, and to create contingency rescue plans if the need should ever arise.

I have no horse in this race. No opinion on what TR did, didn't do, or might have done with these masters. I just feel like folks are latching onto parts when Hazekiah pointed at TR personally ("Looks like the devastating loss is solely isolated to the case of the guy who the owner of Nothing was already publicly engaged with in a bitter feud. Hmm. Funny how that works") and ignoring when his criticisms were more measured (of TR professionally).

Sutehk, surely you're capable of grasping that "TR was responsible for safeguarding those assets" is not the same as "it is no-one else but Reznor's fault." Yet again, I repeat; these are two separate matters.

Whether or not it was Trent Reznor himself who was actively involved in the mysterious case of the disappearing masters has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not he may still be held accountable for his dereliction of duty with regards to their stewardship.

That's a fair enough point, in the end it very well could have been deliberate and even if not, TR could've ensured that the masters were better taken care of.

If I may, again... I believe Hazekiah is saying: "TR is responsible" and "Only TR is responsible" are two different matters.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and now THIS post makes SEVEN.

Come on, Sutekh, you seem like a pretty bright guy sometimes.

You can't SERIOUSLY be this retarded, ffs.

[october_midnight]

Seriously dude, get over yourself. Nobody's trolling you. Just because you hang off Marilyn Manson's nuts doesn't mean people can't have disparaging opinions of him. Like I said (in one of my posts that you didn't just use half of to change the context), every other thread is DISCUSSION. If anyone...fucking ANYONE says anything bad about Manson you whine like a bitch. Feel free to go in to any of the other musical threads and say you're not a fan...big whoop. It's fucking 2013. The guy is holding on to a glimmer of fame. Reznor is winning Oscars and breaking barriers...Manson is drinking and struggling for relevance.

Who gives a fuck about the fucking masters for ACSS. It's in the past. His music's bland as fuck now. His shtick is stale. Go back to your fucking Vampire Freaks profile and piss off.

[Hazekiah]

Although I am a huge Marilyn Manson fan I certainly don't mind disparaging opinions about him or whine like a bitch about them, I just try to correct mistakes, provide some informed insight, and offer my own rebuttals when I feel it's appropriate to do so, thanks.

Never cared at all for Vampire Freaks or had a profile there, not even when it was briefly adopted as a promotional tool by Manson himself in conjunction with the release of EAT ME, DRINK ME and "If I was Your Vampire."

Regarding my own mistaken portrayal of YOU, however, it's worth mentioning that you're probably not so much trolling me specifically since you seem to basically be an asshole across the board wherever you post. I'm "over myself" enough to admit I may have overstated your focus on trolling me in particular. You're just an antagonist bastard in general. Don't worry, I get it. You even get a couple good shots in sometimes, there's no harm in owning up to it.

But you're completely mistaken about my quoting only half of your post to change it's context. All I did was quote the portion of what you wrote which was salient to the point I was making without needlessly repeating your irrelevant commentary afterward. Which in NO WAY WHATSOEVER changed its context, I hasten to add.

Being a fairly bright guy yourself, I'm sure you can understand how your apparent lack of understanding on such a simple point as that (possibly because it was me who quoted you?) might occasionally feel like a more personal sort of trolling.

[screwdriver]

Again with the douchebags that don't know wtf they're talking about here, what a surprise.

It was always the case that it was Manson's first three albums from their partnership with Nothing which had gone missing, ever since that fact was first brought to light.

Took all of 15 seconds to track down the quote, ffs:



Full interview here.

And like I'd already mentioned, it is of course possible to essentially reverse engineer new "masters" from the existing tracks. Someone from this very board once mentioned that same fact with regards to this discussion concerning some cobbled-together quasi-masters for a Garbage album, I believe it was. With mixed-results, needless to say.

Not to mention the fact that most of the tracks remastered from those three albums for Lest We Forget were able to be found because they were duped for use as singles and soundtrack contributions...in other words NOT from the actual ALBUM masters.

So kindly try and keep up or just STFU, thanks.

the interview you quote from was from after Katrina -- is there a source on the Lest We Forget mastering issues? Google isn't helping. (not doubting you, just curious.)

[WorzelG]

From what I've read in the press etc about the Malm lawsuit, nothing records (and the seemingly endless other nothing companies) was in a pretty bad state in (2003 was it? I can't remember the dates) - I'm surprised anyone even was working there to look after the tapes / assets. Also since TR seemingly couldn't take care of his own financial accounts, he's hardly going to be standing guard outside the nothing vault. Shame MM didn't get his tapes back much earlier given he knew the co-custodian was a drug addict at the time. Sounds to me like the whole nothing thing was a bad idea from the get-go

[NotoriousTIMP]

why are you torturing yourself with all those shows, Coheed excluded?

I'm just showing that the convenience fee changes from band to band which is totally BS. It should be a flat rate...

[ManBurning]

I'm just showing that the convenience fee changes from band to band which is totally BS. It should be a flat rate...

Least your Manson ticket was only $54, i'd love to pay $54 for a Manson show. In fact, that's a pretty goddamn reasonable price. 4 hours North to you they get away with gauging us for $82 a fucking ticket in Vancouver. Canada always gets ripped off on show prices. A $65 ticket turned into $82 after the buttfucking fees.

[Stereo75]

Feb 4th, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Set list:

Hey, Cruel World
Disposable Teens
The Love Song
No Reflection
Mobscene
Dope Show
Slo-Mo-Tion
Rock Is Dead
Personal Jesus
Sweet Dreams
Coma White
King Kill 33
Antichrist Superstar
Beautiful People
Four Rusted Horses

Didn't go to the show, but worked converting back to Hockey. Found a pick on the floor - black with red '4-M swastika (or whatever) logo' & 'No Regret' printed on the other side, as seen here:http://www.blackdiamondmemorabilia.c...2012-tour-pick Also found one with a guitar tech named Mark Lubetski's name & email printed on it - think I'll email & see who it belongs to...

[Sutekh]

for 5 large the ACSS demos can be yourrrrssssss

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antichrist-S...2%AD542wt_1397

[Conan The Barbarian]

A ridiculous price but damn that is awesome. I'd probably pay 500

[henryeatscereal]

I'll buy that for a dollar! (Maybe even more)

[Sutekh]

For your own sake, I truly hope you're just being willfully fucking ignorant by now.


My precise point has been stated and restated and clarified and explicated numerous goddamned times in the last few pages, by not only myself and with jessamineny's graciously contributed assistance but even by fucking october_goddamned_midnight, who otherwise can't seem to resist the urge to troll the fuck out of me anywhere else I post. If even HE can see and understand what's been CLEARLY stated as my position here then I trust it's been made blatantly explicit by now.


Jesus FUCK, don't even try to tell me I haven't been specific enough when even one of the biggest assholes on the board AND a neutral party were BOTH able to read and understand exactly what I'd written straight-away and right off the bat without needing their fucking hands held like a child.


Goddamn, how many times have we gone over this by now? Let's see...


























1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and now THIS post makes SEVEN.


Come on, Sutekh, you seem like a pretty bright guy sometimes.


You can't SERIOUSLY be this retarded, ffs.

What you think I'm saying is not what I'm actually saying - read carefully ;


I understand that you are not saying it was he who put the tapes in the bin (or whatever), and it was not necessarily ONLY TR that was responsible... I am pointing out that your "his watch" comment infers that ULTIMATELY the responsibility has to be TR's. I'm pointing out the fact you've (obviously unwittingly) made a logical inferrence that you clearly don't agree wth...

My point is your comment logically infers that blame is ultimately and categorically TRs - and obviously you don't think that is the case.

[Conan The Barbarian]

I was expecting conversation on the demos, and then I see this. Lol.

[Callahan]

well shit, I would love to hear those demos! The guy is asking an insane price though, and I doubt anyone will buy it at that price. If the auction ends with no buyers, I wonder if he would entertain offers.

[Magtig]

Manson collapsed on stage, puked, and there were EMTs on the scene.

[Fixer808]

Possibly a side-effect of being in Saskatoon, but hopefully he's a'ight.

[thelastdisciple]

Manson collapsed on stage, puked, and there were EMTs on the scene.

No surprise there, hasn't this been a long time coming now? he's in his 40s and thinks he can just party hard every night probably not sleep at all or take some uppers and chug some Red Bull when he gets up.., perform a show and not have that mess him up some how? sooner or later something had to give.

I mean sure I'm making assumptions right now and i don't know the facts, maybe he just has the flu or some shit and is just very fatigued but let's be honest given his attitude and track record lately for sloppy showmanship by way of constantly boozing up all the time.

Showing up late to gigs, disrespecting people you're touring with and getting in to fights like an idiot.

This guy owes it to his fans to straighten himself out and put on a good show for them, sure the diehards will argue that he hasn't ever had a bad show and is still in tip top shape but we all know it's possible to have the blinders on and not be thinking objectively.

[october_midnight]

My friend Nick from university has the utmost joy of living in SK, went to the show last night in Moose Jaw and said it was such a shitty show ('like an hour, he just faced the drummer half the time, sounded like shit') that he sold his ticket for tonight's show. Bet he wishes he went now lol.

[Conan The Barbarian]

He has been sick these past few shows, besides the intake of of whatever the fuck he shoves in his body these days, Im sure the flu was the final draw for him to collapse.

I hope one day, he wakes up and realizes that he is not 28 anymore and realizes that now is the right time to take care of himself.

[october_midnight]

Reading the posts on his Facebook makes me lose yet another glimmer of hope for humanity. Why hasn't the technology been invented yet that allows someone like me to jump in to people's rooms that post shit like 'OMGZ SO WORRIED, HOPE HE'S OK!' and just give them a slap in the teeth. Just wanna say 'HE USED TO CARE ABOUT YOU. HE USED TO BE THE MOST DANGEROUS GUY IN MUSIC. HE'D PISS ON YOU FOR ANOTHER SHOT OF BOOZE.'

[Fixer808]

I thought Ice-T was the most dangerous guy in music...?
I mean, aside from his shitty rap name.

[Conan The Barbarian]

You cant blame teenagers acting the way they do, because I believe the majority of his fans are teenagers who missed out on what was one of the most iconic rock stars of our time as kids.

Am I still a fan?
Yes.
Am I a fan like I was back in 95, nope.

[Magtig]

Who cares about dangerous? He used to be the guy with the most potential. He used to be something of a rock philosopher, but now he's just a fool who makes metal. Of all the musicians and artists I admired growing up Manson has become the biggest disappointment, and I really hate it. I hate that this is where he's wound up.

Anyway, in a perfect world a brush with death would be enough to snap someone like Manson out of a deep rut. When people say 'I hope he's okay' my response is that he hasn't been okay for years, but I wish him a full recovery nonetheless.

[october_midnight]

Agreed wholeheartedly, people said he was the new Bowie and I was like 'Fuck man, he could do it too.' The sky was the fuckin' limit!

[Conan The Barbarian]

I also miss when Manson had intelligent answers to the questions that were asked in interviews. Now you read it, its comical response after comical response.

[Max Leo]

Regarding ACSS's masters (sorry for bringing this back again):

-Manson has talked several times about how much money TR was making thanks to his album sales because they signed a contract that granted him profits for every MM's record sold, plus royalties for the songs that he co-wrote plus whatever he is paid as producer, that's a lot of money in Trent's pocket, he could be making more cash from ACSS or POAAF than from several NIN's albums. The album is also a masterpiece and Reznor has commented numerous times how proud he was of his work on it an how much he liked it, saying that its songs were like "the holy bible" for him. Purposely losing or destroying the tapes makes zero sense from a financial (and artistic) point of view, since a new remastered edition would grant him a lot of extra cash, being ACSS one of the most commercially successful albums he has ever worked on.

-TR was the owner of Nothing Records, but the guy that worked in most of the label stuff was actually Malm. TR was the artistic side of the label and made many artistic decisions like choosing bands to sign and stuff like that, the administrative and financial work was mostly in Malm's hands afaik. I doubt that Trent had Manson's masters under his bed, I guess the masters had to be guarded somewhere safe, and I doubt that Trent lost a single minute of his time in that specific task, that's what Malm's job was suppossed to be, taking care of the non artistic side of the label, that's why Reznor didn't realize that he was losing tons of money and had to sue his partner/manager.

-Jeordie White wrote most of the music for ACSS, yet he joined NIN after the masters had been lost. If he thought that Trent was the ultimate responsible for the loss of the mastertapes, he would have never joined NIN. Jeordie makes tons of cash from ACSS's royalties, being MM's most successful album by far, if he thought that Trent had purposely made him lose a lot of that money from a potebntial re-release of the album, he would be an idiot for joining NIN. However he joined NIN and seemed more than happy to be a friend of Trent again, both Trent and Jeordie talked several times about how glad they were of being friends again and Jeordie never complained about how his evil bandmate had lost his precious masters.

-If the masters were accidentally lost or destroyed, how can you blame Reznor? If they had been lost or destroyed because of Reznor's negligence, Manson and Jeordie would have sued his ass. Manson has sued several of his ex-bandmates for far more trivial shit, shouldn't he have sued Reznor or Malm, Nothing Records owners? And again, how would Twiggy join the band of the guy that caused, purposely or not, the loss of the tapes of his most successful album? He should be meeting Trent in the courts, not onstage. If neither Manson nor Twiggy have sued Reznor, how can you say that he was the ultimate responsible for the loss of the masters? A judge should rule that.

-And we should know all the facts before blaming Reznor, Malm, the Katrina, a band of thieves or who the fuck knows. Being one of the owners of the label doesn't necessarily make him the ultimate responsible for everything, that's just fucking ignorant and stupid. Until we know (if we ever know) all the facts, we shouldn't be speculating shit just because of whatever Manson has said. If he really thinks that Reznor is the guy that has lost his masters (masters that were probably owned by Nothing/Interscope anyway, they were not "Manson's masters", big labels usually keep the masters for themselves afaik, and if they lose or destroy them they are destroying their own shit), he should just either sue him or stfu.


-ACSS is perfect as it is, it doesn't need any kind of remastering imo. If Manson wanted to release a 20th anniversary edition in a few years, he could do it without needing a remaster, just include some extra stuff like a DTTW dvd, other songs from that era or some demos, and the fans should be more than happy. A 5.1 remaster could be great, of course, but if the masters are lost, he should be the one doing everything he could to find out what the fuck happened instead of just saying that Reznor lost them. Once he finds out that Reznor actually lost or destroyed the masters or that it was Reznor's fault, then sue him and tell us what happened, tell us if a drunken and high as fuck Reznor set the masters on fire while singing, dancing and masturbating around them wearing just his infamous red robe.

[profane]

Edit:

[henryeatscereal]

keep on drinking!