Likes: 
Faceplams: You're insane to think that someone with a baseball will kill as many people in a shopping mall than than with guns.
The data doesn't back such claim.
Active Member
You're insane to think that someone with a baseball will kill as many people in a shopping mall than than with guns.
The data doesn't back such claim.
Active Member
Active Member
You actually consider this proof!? classic! Did you actually read it?Originally Posted by Deepvoid
"our study could not determine cause-and-effect relationships, further studies are necessary to define the nature of this association."
hint: it's because they only looked at a 4 year timespan. if you put more depth into your study you'll quickly discover the answer: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf
Maybe you'll read it now?
...lol nope
exact same issue as the last study. There is no examination of incident rate before the gun control was put in place. Chicago has some of the most strict gun control yet some of the worst crime. Is the gun control a symptom of the crime or is the crime a symptom of the gun control? Following the weak examination attempt of your examples, it would indicate that gun control makes crime worse.
This is why I am not going to waste time repeating myself. They may not teach statistical analysis in public school but they do teach basic scientific testing methods. If you can't see the gaping holes in basic causation vs correlation then it's pointless to discuss. You deserve the clueless gun control representatives that you currently have. You are armed with your own ignorance and that alone will stop any effective change. You'll blame it on the opposition and things will march forward as it always has.
Last edited by DigitalChaos; 04-12-2013 at 01:57 PM.
Active Member
"A higher number of firearm laws in a state are associated with a lower rate of firearm fatalities in the state, overall and for suicides and homicides individually" - Yes further study is necessary but the link is there. It just needs to be examined exhaustively.
I'm armed with the benefit of living in a country where it's illegal to carry a gun. I live in a country where the odds are that I will get hit by lightning before getting shot.
I wouldn't trade that for anything in the world. Keep ignoring the problem. The blood of innocent children will be on your hand.
Active Member
Breaking news: Two shot at New River Community College inside a mall in Christiansburg, Va., CNN affiliates report.
Speaking of blood ...
Quiet Member
"Canada averages over 2 million lightning strikes are each year. And, despite our relatively short lightning season, 9 to 10 people are killed and between 100 and 150 people are injured each year by lightning in Canada. This compares to an average of 57 deaths per year in the United States." http://www.ec.gc.ca/foudre-lightning...n&n=2814D3B2-1
Looking at the homicide rate per year in Canada it looks like around 150-200 per year. That makes you about 15 times more likely to be killed by a firearm than a bolt of lightning.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/canada
Nobody is ignoring the problem. The issue is that we have a bunch of idiots clamoring to solve a problem that they have absolutely no realistic solution to.
Active Member
rofl
Facts are just completely pulled out of thin air, once again. Thank you for fact checking that, I was about to.
Now if you compare lightning strikes to "being shot in a mass shooting" it would be shed some light onto this HUGE ISSUE that they are fearful of.
edit: And we would only need to look at the mass shooting risk within the horrible and very deadly USA. We all know that this is the country with a massive problem that needs to be fixed at nearly any cost.
Last edited by DigitalChaos; 04-12-2013 at 07:33 PM.
Quiet Member
It's also worth noting that the Canadian firearm homicide rate doesn't include firearm suicides. Canadians are 60 times more likely to kill themselves with a firearm than they are to get killed by a bolt of lightning.
I'd bet a lot of the approximately 600 people that kill themselves with guns a year in Canada have some form of mental illness. The question is how the hell do they get guns?
Quiet Member
Since we are talking about statistics and saving lives. A quick look at MADD shows around 10,000 drunk driving fatalities per year in the US.
2012 had an unusual number of mass shootings and totaled 72 fatalities. 2011 had 19. Source (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ones-full-data)
In 2012 140 children were reported by the media of drowning in swimming pools (http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News...n-Summer-2012/).
An average of 55 people per year are killed by lightning strikes. 500 people died due to tornadoes in the US in 2011 (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weath...her/52504754/1)
In 2011 323 people were murdered with rifles. 496 with hammers and clubs. (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...an-With-Rifles)
My point is that it really is terrible that these tragedies happen....but they happen. Unless someone has a realistic solution that would have an impact on gun violence....You're just wringing your wrists and not helping at all.
Quiet Member
http://uneditedpolitics.com/presiden...ed-down-41713/
Maybe he should change his slogan to "no we can't!".
Throbbing Member
Actually, a lot of people who kill themselves don't necessarily have any form of mental illness at all. See, the number one risk factor in suicide is impulsivity. Someone is far more likely to kill themselves during an impulsive moment, a spur of the moment. An otherwise mentally healthy person could be having a bad time, and commit suicide through impulse. This is why some councilors recommend to someone who's reported suicidal thoughts, that they formulate a plan. This might sound counter intuitive (borderline cruel, in fact!) until you realize that by following a plan, the risk is reduced, because the person at risk will have placed some time between the thoughts and the action. By the time they write their suicide note, and drive to the end of a cliff, they'll have calmed down, and the impulse will have passed.
Hence why such a shit tonne of suicides are accomplished through guns. It's an extremely impulsive weapon. Pulling a trigger on oneself is an extremely impulsive act.
Bite me
Gaby Giffords speaks out about the cowards who ignored the majority of American voters today.
Next election, I'm voting Green Party.
Get every one of the NRA-dick-sucking pigs out of office who are only there to get cash.
Active Member
Here is an article about his response:
http://reason.com/blog/2013/04/17/ob...control-defeat
That sums up just about everything in my mind currently. It also answers my question about why the Dems are failing at this.
Quiet Member
Can you provide links to the articles that support your hypothesis?
Active Member
I know this is Giffords but holy shit... her entire article was an appeal to fear and complaining that people gave in to the wrong fear. If your foundation is fear, you've failed.
In similar news, I got this email today. The subject line is just... rofl
Throbbing Member
Do you know what mental illness is, first of all, and, second, do you realize that you are talking out of your ass right now?
Throbbing Member
There's a lot of discussion online- this is an interesting article.
Get fucked.
Active Member
You don't have to be mentally ill to be capable of violence.
There are people with violent temper.
Quiet Member
Checked out your article and I've gotta agree with Corvus. You both have no idea what you're talking about and are indeed talking out your ass.
Quiet Member
There is a point where a violent temper or impulsive behavior becomes a mental illness.
I'd say that point is certainly crossed when a person blows their brains out or shoots up a mall.
Active Member
I disagree but hey ... I'm not a doctor.
Man lost his job, wife ... teenage son just came out of the closet. Dad decides the world is gonna pay for his misery. Go buy a gun, ammo and starts shooting people.
Gun activists will always have the "mental illness" excuse to hide behind. "Oh he was insane!". "Let's not make a big deal out of this".
What about the man waiting at McDonalds after a hard day of work, some jackass cuts him in line. Argument ensue. People start cursing. Man that got cut, pull his concealed gun and shots the other punk who cut him. Is he insane?
In that case, is anyone killing another human being insane? It's technically not normal behavior to kill a fellow human being. Therefore, everyone who commits murder should be considered mentally ill and trialed as a mentally ill person.
Quick question, can a person diagnosed with a mental illness buy a gun pretty easily as of April 18, 2013?
Last edited by Deepvoid; 04-18-2013 at 08:08 AM.
Quiet Member
Insanity is a mental illness but not all mentally ill people are insane. I'd certainly imagine that most psych professionals would agree that someone that shoots someone for cutting in line at McDs is mentally ill. I also think that they would also agree that someone that goes on a shooting spree because his son is gay....is mentally ill.
Also if I'm buying a gun from a FFL I have to fill out a form 4473. The form specifically asks if you've been adjudicated mentally defective, ever been committed to a mental institution...Also asks if you're a junkie.
Active Member
So the motives behind the killing determine whether you're mentally ill or not. That's interesting...
Can you give me some example of motives behind a murder, which you think a psych professional would not consider someone mentally ill?
Finally, when filing said form 4473 and let's say you check the "yes" box for junkie. The sale will be blocked and you won't be able to get you hands on any firearms whatsoever?
Active Member
That's a great hypothetical situation of sudden rage with a concealed weapon and all that... but do you have any stats to demonstrate how frequently (if at all) it happens?
The rate of legal concealed carry holders committing any crime is crazy low to begin with. Breaking that down into specifics that are able to demonstrate your hypothetical should be... difficult.
Throbbing Member
Since it's about suicide, I'm going to chip in:
From this rather brilliant article:
Also remembered this:After all, if the impulse to suicide is primarily rooted in mental illness and that illness goes untreated, how does merely closing off one means of self-destruction have any lasting effect? At least a partial answer is that many of those Britons who asphyxiated themselves did so impulsively. In a moment of deep despair or rage or sadness, they turned to what was easy and quick and deadly — “the execution chamber in everyone’s kitchen,” as one psychologist described it — and that instrument allowed little time for second thoughts. Remove it, and the process slowed down; it allowed time for the dark passion to pass.
Research has shown that there are fundamental differences in the prefrontal cortex and the brain stem between people who die by suicide and people who don't. There is a significant lack of serotonin inhibitors in the neocortex, which is the decision making centre of the brain, and an abundance of serotonin neurons in the brain stem, up to 25% or more in excess of what one can expect at a given age.Guns are the means in nearly 60 percent of U.S. teen suicides, and that number jumps to more than 70 percent outside metropolitan areas in Nebraska.
The problem might not be the guns themselves, but how accessible they are to adolescents.
The World-Herald found a close statistical link between states with high suicide rates and states in which a higher number of teenage boys say they handle guns regularly.
In interviews with 28 families of children who killed themselves with guns, the newspaper found that only three of the children had to break into locked gun cabinets. The rest had keys, or had the guns in their rooms, or knew where the guns and ammunition were stored.
If the guns were locked, and the ammunition locked in a separate location, some teens may have found another way. But researchers say at least some deaths wouldn't have happened.
Since suicide is often accompanied or predated by a clinical depression, and clinical depression is in fact the result of an incorrect handling of serotonin in the brain, this is actually to be expected.
But here's where your 'you're talking out of your ass' goes wrong: while both depression and malfunctioning serotonin brakers/neurons are a physical cause of mental illness, it results in extreme impulsiveness. The prefrontal cortex fails to engage in the decision making process, lacking the inhibitions to filter out the best solution from a range of options. A depressed and/or suicidal person often has long stretches of time where they can only function by commands (which is why structure and routine are so important, and loneliness is a contributing factor: with no one else to structure their lifes for them, the prefrontal cortex gets flooded with too many appeals for structure and no possible way of responding to those appeals). Such a command isn't simply verbal: a 'walk/don't walk' sign is also a command, as is a chair one can sit on or a train that arrives on the platform your standing on.
A means to suicide at hand is not only dangerous for someone who has no impulse control, but it can also become a command: a solution that is so visible and so strong in its suggestion, that the neocortex automatically selects it as the best solution from the many options.
A lot of suicidal depressions go undiagnosed, especially amongst teens, adolescent, singles and elderly (for a variety of reasons). And while it's true that these depressions are serious mental illnesses, the fact that impulse control or lack thereof play a significant role in whether or not this depression escalates to actual suicide, should ring some alarm bells when it comes to gun control.
Active Member
Gun control is a cruel and naive approach to the issue of suicide. I honestly don't believe that people see the issue of suicide and think "take away their guns" is the answer instead of treating the mental issue. It's way more likely that people are looking for reasons to justify gun control and suicide seems like a good idea, on the surface, to throw at the wall. lame
Trying to focus on gun control when it comes to mental health can frequently backfire: http://www.echoingthesound.org/commu...0507#post80507
You want to solve the issue of mental health, focus on mental health. You want to solve the death of children at schools, focus on that. You want to solve random killing of people, focus on that. You want to focus on reduce general crime, focus on that. When you start conflating issues it's clear that you either don't have a focus needed to solve an issue and/or you are failing at your original goal.
Active Member
How do you prevent undiagnosed people of committing crimes?
You can have all the treatments available but if someone does not wish to be diagnosed/is not seeking help what do you do?
You feel that it's OK for an undiagnosed mentally ill person to have the same accessibility to firearms than a perfectly normal person?
Quiet Member
I think a huge problem in the country right now is we are abandoning personal responsibility on a massive scale. It's much easier to blame inanimate objects for our problems than to look at the central core issues.
One thing I find interesting is how anti-gun people will routinely point out that you are very unlikely to ever been in a situation where you would need to defend yourself with deadly force. Then anti-gun people like Deepvoid spams this forum every time someone gets shot anywhere in the world and makes it seem like if you step foot outside of your house you'll get shot by a gun toting psychopath in 5 minutes flat.
Quiet Member
So you want to do psych evaluations on everyone in the country?
Active Member
How do you prevent an undiagnosed mentally ill person from buying an assault riffle with high capacity magazine and killing a bunch of kids?
Do you believe that there is NOTHING that can be done to prevent an undiagnosed psychopath from purchasing an arsenal in a relatively easy fashion?
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