Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[ickyvicky]

Jurors find all three defendants guilty of murder.

[Jinsai]

Fuck. Yes.

[allegate]

lot of people saying the parents should also be charged and that seems to be an argument that I've not seen before.

[cdm]

lot of people saying the parents should also be charged and that seems to be an argument that I've not seen before.

I think it's popping up here given how recently the gun was purchased but that doesn't necessarily mean they're guilty of wrong-doing.

[sweeterthan]

I think it's popping up here given how recently the gun was purchased but that doesn't necessarily mean they're guilty of wrong-doing.

i don’t know. gun safety should definitely have more laws and requirements including accountability for the weapon you own.


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[cdm]

i don’t know. gun safety should definitely have more laws and requirements including accountability for the weapon you own.

Sure, I agree we need more gun owner accountability but the prosecutors are bound by the current laws on the books. At 15 he would be legally allowed to use the gun with supervision and I don't think we know enough about the family's gun storage habits but assuming it was locked up, I have a feeling the kid would have had access to it if he really wanted it (aka "self defense in the home"). I'm not sure that alone would meet a criminal threshold in the eyes of a jury.

I think there is also prejudice against the parents because 1. the kid isn't talking and 2. they denied permission and hired a lawyer so people assume they're covering for him. So just as we hear so much about what to do when the cops want to talk to you ("shut the fuck up") they're doing just that and that alone isn't an indication of their guilt.

With all that said, if there is evidence they were somehow criminally responsible...charge the hell out of them.

[allegate]

I think it's popping up here given how recently the gun was purchased but that doesn't necessarily mean they're guilty of wrong-doing.

fair point, but also they aren't letting him talk.

The motive remains unknown as the suspect has refused to talk. Police say he has no prior record. They said they were searching the suspect's cellphone, school video footage and social media posts for any evidence of a possible motive. "The person that's got the most insight and the motive is not talking," said Bouchard, according to the Associated Press.

Undersheriff Mike McCabe said the suspect's parents visited their son where he's being held and advised him not to talk to investigators, as is his right. Police must seek permission from a juvenile suspect's parents or guardian to speak with them, he added.

I know it's their right but it's suspect at best.

Also:

There were signs, says parentA parent of one the students in the school Robin Redding said her son, Treshan Bryant had stayed home Tuesday as he had heard threats that there could be a shooting. "This couldn't be just random," she said.


Bryant said he had heard unconfirmed threats "for a long time now" about plans for a shooting, reported the Associated Press. Bryant said he texted several younger cousins in the morning and they said they didn't want to go to school, and he got a bad feeling. He asked his mom if he could do his assignments online.

[thelastdisciple]

Cenk Uygur is SUCH a mood right now.

[allegro]

The kid planned the murder days ahead of time in his journal, and posted stuff to Facebook ahead of the shooting saying he was gonna bring death to Oxford.

His dad bought him the handgun and three magazines on Black Friday. You have to register guns in Michigan; it’s illegal for anyone younger than 21 to own a handgun.

[cdm]

The kid planned the murder days ahead of time in his journal, and posted stuff to Facebook ahead of the shooting saying he was gonna bring death to Oxford.

His dad bought him the handgun and three magazines on Black Friday. You have to register guns in Michigan; it’s illegal for anyone younger than 21 to own a handgun.

This is all gross and they both seems to be scumbags, particularly the father, I'm just not hopeful they'll be found guilty of anything unless they have concrete evidence there was prior knowledge.

There are ways to get around the gun law. As for age, the kid can legally own the handgun at 18 so long as he received a purchasing permit from the state AND the handgun was purchased from a private seller. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the age 21 restriction on handguns only applies if A. the seller is federally licensed dealer and B. for issuance of a concealed carry permit. Dad will say it was registered to him until chud junior turns 18 at which time he'd sell it to him as a private seller. That seems like a huge batshit crazy loophole but also perfectly legal.

Edit: and to be perfectly clear, I don't really disagree with what Cenk Uyger is saying, which is "if it's your gun and your kid uses it to commit murder, you should be charged as accessory", just that I'm not really expecting anything more than a misdemeanor gun something-or-other out of this. Charges are one thing but a guilty verdict is another and I'm just not very optimistic on that. I'll happily be proven wrong, though.

[allegro]

This is all gross and they both seems to be scumbags, particularly the father, I'm just not hopeful they'll be found guilty of anything unless they have concrete evidence there was prior knowledge.

There are ways to get around the gun law. As for age, the kid can legally own the handgun at 18 so long as he received a purchasing permit from the state AND the handgun was purchased from a private seller. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the age 21 restriction on handguns only applies if A. the seller is federally licensed dealer and B. for issuance of a concealed carry permit. Dad will say it was registered to him until chud junior turns 18 at which time he'd sell it to him as a private seller. That seems like a huge batshit crazy loophole but also perfectly legal.

That’s not how I understand Michigan law. I actually have a handgun from a Michigan*. If I lived in Michigan, it would require me to obtain a license and permit. Federal law prevents anyone under 21 from buying a handgun, so the kid couldn’t directly purchase it because he (a) couldn’t get a Michigan license and (b) can’t buy one legally under Federal law. If the kid’s Facebook post and journal entries make it clear that mom and dad gave kid the gun for Christmas (as the mom posted on HER Facebook page), then they transferred ownership to the kid.

* see 8, I actually inherited the handgun. In Michigan, I’d still need a license.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(42y...ame=mcl-28-422

“Charged” and “found guilty” are two different things, yes. As are civil lawsuits.

His parents could now be up against FEDERAL charges.

The father isn’t more “scummy” than the mom:

[cdm]

https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-an...gun-unlicensed

If his dad owns the gun he can gift it or sell it to his son at 18 as a private individual. The son would have to obtain a purchasing permit and license but he can legally own the gun at 18. What he can't do until 21 is buy the same gun from a federally licensed dealer. The federal government is not regulating the handgun so much as they're regulating the dealer with a federal license to sell. All this is moot, of course, because the kid isn't 18 yet and he'll probably never see the outside of a concrete cell, save for the trips to and from court.

Edit: and as it turns out...

Hopefully these charges stick.

[allegro]

Yes, Dad can do that when kid turned 18, but kid would still have to get a Michigan license and then register said gun. But from all of the evidence presented so far, it appears that the parents presented the gun and mags to the kid as an early Christmas present. In other words, transferred ownership to the kid. He posted pics of himself in his room with the gun, and in his pocket, and saying he just got the gun. If it’s “his,” it requires the kid to obtain a license and registration. Which the kid could not legally do. If it’s “dad’s,” there’s apparently no Michigan law requiring guns to be locked up. But the kid didn’t say, on social media, “this is my dad’s gun.” He, at least, was under the distinct impression that it was his - the kid’s - gun.

The kid was apparently being bullied at school. If the parents KNEW this and got him a gun, now there’s hella premeditation, too.

Meanwhile, media keeps posting grade school pics of this kid. Wtf.

[cdm]

Yes, Dad can do that when kid turned 18, but kid would still have to get a Michigan license and then register said gun. But from all of the evidence presented so far, it appears that the parents presented the gun and mags to the kid as an early Christmas present. In other words, transferred ownership to the kid. He posted pics of himself in his room with the gun, and in his pocket, and saying he just got the gun. If it’s “his,” it requires the kid to obtain a license and registration. Which the kid could not legally do. If it’s “dad’s,” there’s apparently no Michigan law requiring guns to be locked up. But the kid didn’t say, on social media, “this is my dad’s gun.” He, at least, was under the distinct impression that it was his - the kid’s - gun.

The kid can post to social media saying he's a millionaire...doesn't make it true. In the eyes of the state of Michigan the dad is still the owner of the gun and while common sense and every shooting instructor will tell you to lock it up for safety, he's under no legal obligation to do so. So if all the state has are some instagram posts of the kid spouting off about it being his gun...that ain't gonna be enough. EDIT: the tone of the prosecutor makes it seem like they have a compelling case but as we all know that's not always indicative of the actual evidence.

[allegate]

something that just occurred to me: much like Texas decided to go after the 'others' in abortion cases to get a law to stick I feel like this is the same thing. can't change or write new gun laws, can't hold the manufacturers accountable (which I agree with), so go after the parents. it's not gun control, it's something else.

[allegate]

something that just occurred to me: much like Texas decided to go after the 'others' in abortion cases to get a law to stick I feel like this is the same thing. can't change or write new gun laws, can't hold the manufacturers accountable (which I agree with), so go after the parents. it's not gun control, it's something else.

well look at that.

More or less what Roberts was warning the Court’s Texas decision could lead to, by providing precedential run-arounds on protected rights.

[elevenism]

well look at that.

I kind of had the same feeling.

At the same time, though, do you think aggressively looking for a point of culpability in the parents of school.shooters is the worst thing in the world?

I think it might create some better parenting, and conversations like "Now. Sonny Jim, one thing you SHOULDN'T do is shoot up the school, no matter what. Do you understand? Do NOT shoot up the school."

I'm REALLY starting to feel that, unfortunately, this is a talk parents need to have with their children, at least in THIS country.

[allegate]

[allegate]

Ahmaud Arbery’s killers sentenced to life in prison, two with no chance of parole

hot damn.gif

[poinoup]

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2021/11/30/active-shooter-multiple-victims-reported-michigans-oxford-high/8810326002/

"[Gov] Whitmer, during an evening news briefing, said "it's too early to talk about policies that might need to change as a result of this."


"This is a uniquely American problem that we need to address," she said. "But at this juncture, I think we need to focus on the community, the families, supporting all the first responders, including the incredible people at our hospitals that are working so hard to save the lives of those who are fighting for their lives."

OK, how about a consolation? Let's start talking about policies that might need to change, starting all the way back with Columbine... or Virginia Tech. There's been enough time for conversation on that, right?

[allegro]

Mom texted “Ethan, don’t do it” the morning of shooting.

https://abc7ny.com/amp/oxford-school...bley/11296940/


So she knew, but didn’t call police.

Checkmate.

[allegate]

Mom texted “Ethan, don’t do it” the morning of shooting.

https://abc7ny.com/amp/oxford-school...bley/11296940/


So she knew, but didn’t call police.

Checkmate.

Wait, was this before or after the at-school meeting? Because that's some wild timing.

[allegro]

Wait, was this before or after the at-school meeting? Because that's some wild timing.

AFTER. Guessing they realized he had the gun in his backpack.

[cdm]

This investigation is going well. /s

EDIT: the sheriff is now on MSNBC being pretty clear his office was taken by surprise by the charges and the Prosecutor's office did not tell them about the press conference ahead of time. They learned of the charges this morning from media inquiries.

[allegro]

Their lawyer says they left town the night of the shooting, for “their own safety,” but will return to turn themselves in:

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...ng/8856414002/

[cdm]

Their lawyer says they left town the night of the shooting, for “their own safety,” but will return to turn themselves in

Interesting because on MSNBC the Sheriff said his office knew of their whereabouts as recently as last night.

[allegate]

who knows!

[allegate]

OH yeah great timing guys

[allegro]

Does Texas have reciprocity with the North Pole?

[Jinsai]

what I was hearing on the radio was that the mom's original text to her son was "LOL, I'm not mad, you gotta learn not to get in trouble."