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Thread: Geopolitical Conflict News

  1. #811
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    here I was getting your back, motherfucker, and you post a Palestinian freedom slogan THROUGH THE LENS OF THE ADL?

    At least you posted the regular Wikipedia article...although, anyone with a halfway decent grasp on geography should find the thing fairly self explanatory.

    Edit: @burnmotherfucker! I WILL admit that I'll likely change my mind if and when that incoming terror attack against Americans the State Department keeps warning speaking of goes down.

    ALSO: is it just me, or is it a LITTLE creepy that we have a NEW emergency alert system?
    Last edited by elevenism; 10-20-2023 at 09:41 AM.

  2. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    here I was getting your back, motherfucker, and you post a Palestinian freedom slogan THROUGH THE LENS OF THE ADL?

    At least you posted the regular Wikipedia article...although, anyone with a halfway decent grasp on geography should find the thing fairly self explanatory.

    Edit: @burnmotherfucker! I WILL admit that I'll likely change my mind if and when that incoming terror attack against Americans the State Department keeps warning speaking of goes down.

    ALSO: is it just me, or is it a LITTLE creepy that we have a NEW emergency alert system?
    Seriously? If actual Jewish people aren't the source for what constitutes hate speech toward them, who is? And did you read the wikipedia article in full? It seems pretty clear to me, both the origin and current meaning of the phrase.

    I certainly wouldn't use that phrase, but everyone is free to decide that for themselves.

    I should also have been more clear that I wasn't trying to drag you down in posting those links, just genuinely trying to inform anyone who might stumble onto this page on these here internets.

    And lest other readers of the board don't know, @elevenism is a cool cat who has always shown to me a willingness to discuss a multitude of topics in a civil manner. And some of our best discussions have been the ones we've disagreed on. So in no way was I trying to throw shade by posting those links. In all honesty, I myself was not aware of the way those in the Jewish community hear that slogan until this week. Hearing them speak about it, and the pain it causes them, is what compelled me to post that information.
    @elevenism is most certainly NOT out there training on that one set of monkey bars the Al-Qaeda have.

  3. #813
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    @burnmotherfucker! Alowishus, all they had was that ONE set of monkey bars.

    Jokes aside, though, this one DOES get me. And, HELL NO, I'm NOT antisemitic.

    At ANY rate, to ME, this, (the thing that gets me) is a dope ass song, and a concise history lesson:


  4. #814
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    NOW. Let us examine what's going on in geopolitical terms. (Keep in mind that this is pure speculation).

    So the US basically took the reins off of Israel, (who OPENLY want to attack Iran), like 6-8 weeks ago.

    Iran is being supported by Russia, and Russia is in league with China and North Korea.

    Ok, so, Iran funds Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and the Houthi movement in Yemen.
    And, well, fuck me: they're all attacking.
    But NO-ONE is attacking in such a way that Iran can TECHNICALLY be blamed.

    To ME? This is a slick,slippery way for Iran/Russia/China to attack the Western World (particularly, in THIS case, TRUMP'S vision of the Western World, wherein Jerusalem is the blah blah nuclear covfefe instead of Tel Aviv, because Trump's FAVORITE book is the Bible. I mean, the bible ain't no Art of the DEAL, but, you know).

    Trump aside, win or lose, we're looking at Russia/Belarus/China/NK/Iran, and an entire contingency of Mid Eastern countries, alongside, PERHAPS, some South American nations, vs NATO/The West (which isn't technically WESTERN-it includes Japan, Vietnam, SK, Australia, Phillipines, and such).

    Things WILL get worse. I've been accused of fear mongering, but it's just reality.
    Last edited by elevenism; 10-20-2023 at 04:46 PM.

  5. #815
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    Many of us understand Israel was going to have some sort of military response to the horrific attack Hamas launched. As much as we might be pacifists & ideally want a complete ceasefire, some level of the reality of the conflict has to creep in.

    So when some ignorant and/or hateful warmonger in your life asks you what the alternative is when you say that Israel shouldn't just carpet bomb & then massacre via full scale invasion a country full of civilians to "get rid of Hamas", point them to this article. Or at least read it yourself so you are equipped for the question. Lays out very clearly what Israel should be doing right now. It's not easy & it's not pretty, but it's more likely to be effective & less savage than the disgusting shit they're pulling right now.


    https://www.vox.com/2023/10/20/23919...asion-strategy

  6. #816
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    What do you guys think of this? I thought it was brilliant...:


  7. #817
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    There have been recent warnings from the FBI, CIA, and DHS, regarding people killing Jews, AND Muslims, on US soil. I say: avoid large crowds. Awful bastards on all side of this are looking to vent their frustrations, by airing people out.

  8. #818
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    Absolute scum-of-the-earth regime that would cease to exist and return the land to Palestine if there were any justice in this world. If Biden truly is Christian, he’s readily accepted his place in hell just to appease capital, for which he’s whored himself out to at every juncture and available opportunity in his career with utter glee. You could not morally nor intellectually justify the idea that he was ever the “lesser evil” now — endless footage and pictures of the Palestinian children’s corpses have instantly made him worse than Trump ever was.

    Our entire institution is pure rot.

  9. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    I say: avoid large crowds.
    Quite possibly the best advice I've seen!

  10. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdinsanity View Post
    Absolute scum-of-the-earth regime that would cease to exist and return the land to Palestine if there were any justice in this world. If Biden truly is Christian, he’s readily accepted his place in hell just to appease capital, for which he’s whored himself out to at every juncture and available opportunity in his career with utter glee. You could not morally nor intellectually justify the idea that he was ever the “lesser evil” now — endless footage and pictures of the Palestinian children’s corpses have instantly made him worse than Trump ever was.

    Our entire institution is pure rot.
    Amen.
    Free Palestine.
    We're probably both on an NSA list, now, but I'd imagine I've been on a list for a WHILE.
    Completely unrelated: when MySpace started.in 03 or 04, my profile picture was of a Muhajideen terrorist, holding an AK, with his face covered, and I left it like that for two years. It was just a joke.
    I also nonstop said shit I CERTAINLY won't repeat here on AIM, about certain devices, and fake "plans," just to piss my friends off.
    As far as DEVICES, even though I live in a small town, I'm ordering the longest legal knife I can get, and clipping the sheath to my belt. My dad always rocked that shit.
    I'm also gonna get an asp: like, a telescoping one.
    Yes, this town is tiny, but it's a truck stop town, and thousands of people come through every day. Shit, I nearly got in a fight with a predatory ass homeless motherfucker I was trying to HELP the other day. And I felt naked unarmed.

    So here's one piece of news/advice: civil unrest IS COMING, period. And if Trump DOESN'T win? Shit. 2025 is going to be WILD.

    I'd also like to bring up another thing: Interesting, that explosion on the 10 in Cali...and the Texas explosion spewing toxic carcinogens in the air (along with a fucking Shelter In Place order), and the UNPRECEDENTED number of train derailments, and explosions at food plants, and all the dead chickens.

    I've mentioned this before, I think, but NOW, I REALLY don't think there's ANY question as to whether it's sabotage or not. The QUESTION is, is this terrorism foreign or homegrown?
    MY guess would be a bit of both.

  11. #821
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    So idk if this belongs here, or somewhere else, but it's pretty wild: we've got some reasonably legitimate news sources saying that 90% of the aid allocated to Ukraine, ACTUALLY stayed in the US.

    Interesting.

  12. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    So idk if this belongs here, or somewhere else, but it's pretty wild: we've got some reasonably legitimate news sources saying that 90% of the aid allocated to Ukraine, ACTUALLY stayed in the US.

    Interesting.
    Probably in the sense that it's being spent on arms manufacturers. Military industrial complex shit

  13. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wretchedest View Post
    Probably in the sense that it's being spent on arms manufacturers. Military industrial complex shit
    I think that's precisely the case...except, I DON'T think we're giving all the arms to Ukraine.
    I think part of the whole POINT of this shit was to throw some extra bread into, you pulled the words right out of my mind, our military industrial complex, so we can get to manufacturing arms again...which we are.
    @Wretchedest , there are so many moving parts to such things that I don't fully understand it, but I know arms and war help our economy.

  14. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    I think that's precisely the case...except, I DON'T think we're giving all the arms to Ukraine.
    I think part of the whole POINT of this shit was to throw some extra bread into, you pulled the words right out of my mind, our military industrial complex, so we can get to manufacturing arms again...which we are.
    @Wretchedest , there are so many moving parts to such things that I don't fully understand it, but I know arms and war help our economy.

    I think it actively harms our economy. When you look at countries without significant military budgets, you see the quality of life in those places and what they can actually spend money on, like healthcare and telecom and education. They all have higher life expectancies and low instances of violent crime.

    It's actually not that complicated. We give billions of dollars to Ukraine or we spend Trillions of dollars fighting wars in the middle east, that money gets spent on weapons that are made by companies owned in the US. Not just weapons but all the packaging and all of the shipping and all the logistical shit. Someone has to sell chairs for people to sit in and even things like tons of toilet paper, pens, shoes, food. All of the those things and in most of those cases they upcharge for the contract to be the one who gets to sell those things to the US or whoever.

    If we are going to spend money on a war, I suppose a half proxy war with Russia seems mildly productive enough to me. But as ever it's always frustrating to see how readily we can free up that kind of money for the weapons and violence and never for school lunches or housing

  15. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wretchedest View Post
    I think it actively harms our economy. When you look at countries without significant military budgets, you see the quality of life in those places and what they can actually spend money on, like healthcare and telecom and education. They all have higher life expectancies and low instances of violent crime.

    It's actually not that complicated. We give billions of dollars to Ukraine or we spend Trillions of dollars fighting wars in the middle east, that money gets spent on weapons that are made by companies owned in the US. Not just weapons but all the packaging and all of the shipping and all the logistical shit. Someone has to sell chairs for people to sit in and even things like tons of toilet paper, pens, shoes, food. All of the those things and in most of those cases they upcharge for the contract to be the one who gets to sell those things to the US or whoever.

    If we are going to spend money on a war, I suppose a half proxy war with Russia seems mildly productive enough to me. But as ever it's always frustrating to see how readily we can free up that kind of money for the weapons and violence and never for school lunches or housing
    I do know one thing: there are two "economies" in the US: there's the "look! The stock market is doing great and we created all these jobs, and fuck me, wages went up! Things are GOOD! The price of chicken even went down ten percent!"

    And THEN, there's the part where, yeah, there.are jobs and wages went up, but the wages don't cover inflation, rents have literally QUADRUPLED in some areas, there are now fucking 40 and 50 year mortgages (aka if you aren't already set up, you'll never own SHIT), and chicken (theoretically) went up 300% before it came down 10%..

    And dude, I'm 100% with you on how disgusting it is that we can fund proxy wars, but not social programs: like, I'm sitting here and can barely type due to a goddamn incurable disease and sure could use some fucking healthcare... I bet the cost of a couple of those hot shit death rays could cover a LOT of us for a hot minute.

    Still, I've seen statistics of countries economies rising massively after horrific wars. There's a lot to it.
    And I guess it's possible that all the weapons manufacturing CREATES jobs, which can stimulate the economy. But the money is absolutely going to the wrong places. Hell, look at the Minuteman "Sacrifice states": they KNOW they'll be immediately obliterated if a nuclear war ever breaks out, but they WANT the shit to continue because it pays people good wages. It's fucking sad.
    Texas isn't considered a sacrifice state, but Pantex, the only place where they put the nukes TOGETHER is right here in No Man's Land, where the dust bowl started, about 70 miles from my fucking house, and, same shit.

    So, tangentially, back to the subject at hand, I do believe weapons production IS currently rocking and rolling in the US in.like, 27 cities iirc? (Don't quote me on that, but it sounds right), and we're talking DECADE long plans for some of this shit.

    And I think we'll be keeping most of the weapons, because we ARE going to war with the whole fucking Shiite world.

    I honestly think it's a twisted plan: Israel is a vassal state of the US.with one of the most badass intelligence programs in the world, and we share intelligence. We now know that Bibi knew EVERY detail of the Hamas strike for a YEAR, meaning we did, too, meaning we collectively LET the attack happen to START a war that the Shiite world will not stand for. More and more released hostages are saying they were fucking BOMBED, meaning, imho, our gvmts never gave a fuck what happened to them.

    We took.the metaphorical reigns off of Israel shortly before the Hamas attack. I think we actually WANT that Middle Eastern war from Gaza to Iran. I think it's about resources, and is an attempt.to make sure we continue to be more powerful than the Brics.

    There isn't much news in this post, but a little speculation never hurt anyone.

  16. #826
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    between 23,000 and 30,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza, and it's OVER NINETY PERCENT CIVILIANS, per Euro Med Monitor and other sources.
    THIS is from day 48. we're on day 101, now.
    It's time to call this shit what it is.



    -at LEAST half of the dead are kids, babies and women. EMM says SEVENTY PERCENT women and children.
    --Refugee camps hit with 2000lb bombs
    -over ONE HUNDRED journalists killed, making this the most dangerous "conflict" in recorded history for those trying to record the truth.
    (But don't worry: just look at Tik Tok. You can see plenty of vids of IDF soldiers fucking with people's belongings, laughing,
    and then burning the house down, and posing in front of it, PURE ABU GRHAIB style.
    The scary part is, in these videos, oftentimes they've just lined the occupants of the house up and executed them.)
    -Palestinian Christians ( of likely the oldest christian community in the world), killed at a fucking church facility with sniper rifles
    -CONVENT, as in, with NUNS and shit, where they were caring for disabled people, attacked with a tank, now unusable
    (but, you know...support Netanyahu "fer Jesus, cause that's in mah bahble" or whatever.

    The IDF has laid waste to dozens of residential neighborhoods, and just fucking bulldozed over the dead. They've purposefully targeted hundreds of hospitals and clinics and scores of doctors and nurses. They've blown up ancient religious sites, a couple hundred schools and universities, mosques, churches, and the like.

    I've found videos of men being lined up in a soccer field and forced to strip...innocent men of god...being humiliated. It NO SHIT wouldn't surprise me if they were killed, afterward. There is a fuckton of evidence of those sort of executions.

    They told people to go south, where they'd be safe, and then dropped 2000lb bunker buster bombs on the "safe zone."
    People are starving to death. They don't have water or medicine. This isn't an accident. It's by design.
    These are fucking innocent civilians.

    Now, at the VERY south edge of Gaza, near Raffa, there are over a MILLION DISPLACED PEOPLE.
    Keep in mind, Gaza is fucking TINY. It's half the size of NYC.

    Their political leaders have referred to Palestinians as "animals," "monsters," said "there are NO innocent Palestinians," etc. They have CLEARLY and BLATANTLY expressed their plans to occupy Gaza and, eventually, the West Bank. They've said "dropping an ATOMIC BOMB on Gaza is a possibility."

    Oh, and BTW: if you haven't heard, there were NOT tunnels under al-Shifa hospital, nor was there any sort of "terrorist Central Command." It was just a big fucking hospital that the IDF wanted to attack.
    People died.
    I've seen pics of dead babies from the NICU there.

    Perhaps you haven't heard all of this shit.

    That's because CNN has a deal with Israel, wherein EVERY BIT OF NEWS ON THIS SUBJECT MUST BE APPROVED BY AN ISRAELI CENSOR. Yes, they got caught in this arrangement, and i'd BET many other news outlets are doing the same.

    SO. What's going on, here? What do you call this? It's called fucking
    GENOCIDE.
    It's time to call this what it is.

    And, remember: YOUR tax dollars are funding it. In November, i believe, the UN had a vote on Palestine's right to EXIST. EVERY fucking country said YES, except 4: Israel, two tiny countries i can't remember the names of, and the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

    When Joe Biden tells Bibi to "slow down, buddy" or whatever the fuck, it's BULLSHIT. He's literally saying one thing and doing the opposite. "One hand upon your heart
    One hand behind your back", if you will.

    And look at Netanyahu. He WANTED to be attacked. He FUNDED Hamas. He literally knew exactly what was going to happen on October 7th, and i mean EXACTLY, for about a year. This has all come out: it's like Bush Did 9/11, except it's fucking REAL.

    For the LIFE of me, i can't figure out why we're funding this shit, and what the endgame is.

    South Africa filed Genocide charges against Israel in the International Court of Justice, and Israeli officials are suddenly walking back their horrific statements, but there are five hundred statements on record.

    Our president has condemned the charge, calling it meritless.

    There's nothing we can do about this.
    But if you want to know what the fuck is REALLY going on, do NOT look at ABC, CBS, CNN or any of that shit.

    Look at outlets like Reuters, the Associated Press, Bloomberg, Forbes, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post.
    Breaking Points is a fucking INCREDIBLE news channel that can be viewed on youtube, and i highly recommend it.

    I don't know if we're supposed to, what, write our congressmen? Mine is Dr. Ronny (i'm LIKELY related to him :/ ) Jackson, the dude who gave trump the dementia test, so that wouldn't help much.

    One last thing. Christmas in Bethlehem is a massive celebration, as the city swells with pilgrims and locals alike, and festivity abounds with food, music, and activity.
    This year, it was cancelled. It was silent.
    They DID set up a couple of Nativity scenes, though:
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Here is Yeshua in the rubble after a bomb hit, wearing Palestinian attire. Remember, Christians set this up.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    And THIS was the BIG one, set up at Manger Square, the alleged birthplace of Yeshua. Razor wire and rubble.

    I know 99% of y'all aren't Christians, but i think this is pretty fucking powerful.

    This shit is so fucking horrible. I'm having to like, limit my intake of news on the subject. I TRY to fucking tell people this shit on facebook posts, but like, almost NOBODY pays attention. @sheepdean did, though: thanks. It's MOSTLY just my mom.

    My profile pic there was a palestinian flag for a few days, but i don't wanna be questioned or whatever when inevitable small scale terror attacks happen.

    I just want to get the word out. It's important to add that i don't have an anti-Semitic bone in my body.

    But it isn't anti-Semitic to call this what it is: a far right leader committing genocide.

    @burnmotherfucker! , SURELY you've changed your position, now. Where in the hell are you, btw, Alowishus? Goddamnit, i KNEW you were imaginary.
    Last edited by elevenism; 01-15-2024 at 04:38 AM.

  17. #827
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    double post:

    it's ALSO important to consider the ramifications of this shit. I don't think it's by accident that we have one of, if not THE biggest, US aircraft carriers parked right next to this, alongside i don't know HOW many Strike Forces...one US Strike Force is more powerful than the entire militaries of many countries.

    We're currently being attacked at our positions in Iraq and Syria and Yemen on the daily: we've got dozens of bases in the area and those are just the ones we KNOW about. (Oh, and by the way, i just caught some video of dead kids DEEP in southern Gaza...in the "safe zone"- looks like they killed five or six kids WHILE Netanyahu was IN COURT, for good measure, but i digress).

    The US is ALREADY, currently, conducting airstrikes in retaliation, against the Iranian backed rebel groups throughout the region.
    Are we ultimately headed for war with Yemen/Syria/Iraq/Lebanon and IRAN? Was this the fucking plan all along?

    The news from two hours ago, per the WP, is that Israel will continue a "high intensity campaign against Gaza throughout January, despite pressure from the Biden administration."
    Israel is also installing measures to make it so even LESS aid reaches Gaza.
    And the US shot down a missile fired from Yemen, which was meant to hit a US Destroyer in the Red Sea.
    THAT was, you know, last NIGHT.

    And that is my concern: we're already engaged in this shit-not the Gaza part, but the, you know, entire fucking Shiite world from Lebanon to Iran, none of whom are very happy with what Israel is doing with weapons and intelligence supplied by the US of A.

    This is a precarious position we're in, what with Iran, for instance, vowing revenge on the "US and Israel."
    I've a question: is this all part of a plan to attempt to start a massive regional conflict, or is Israel TRULY in a "tail wagging the dog" situation? I mean, they've always damn near been a US proxy state. We're ALLEGEDLY telling them to chill, and THEY'RE telling us to fuck off, even as we fund them.

    And SHOULD we be drawn into a regional conflict (as some Israeli gvmt members have openly called for), well, who is Iran's closest ally? Iiiiiittttttt's RUSSIA! And Russia/China have this transactional relationship going.
    ALSO, China is STILL fucking doing exercises that look a HELL of a lot like REHERSALS for taking Taiwan, which they continue to say they ARE fucking going to do, with the US having sworn to intervene.

    So, there IS a possibility that we could wind up in a war with Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Russia, China, and i'd throw a North Korea in there, too, if this shit doesn't stop.
    And it wouldn't be a normal war. That "Leave the World Behind" movie is an example of the type of asymmetrical and unconventional moves that would be made in such a conflict in the internet age.
    The internet has been off for like 72 hours in Gaza, for instance, right now.

    I'll say this: we COULD and likely WOULD win a war like that, with three fronts, but it goddamn sure wouldn't be pretty.
    Last edited by elevenism; 01-15-2024 at 04:36 AM.

  18. #828
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    God, I hope the US doesn't elect a GOP president in the current geopolitical climate.

  19. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by stankeybearlover View Post
    God, I hope the US doesn't elect a GOP president in the current geopolitical climate.
    I have no love for the GOP but Biden is as big, if not bigger, a warmonger as any of those guys. I read a book by Jake Tapper, can't remember title, that was about Afghanistan. It had several instances where Biden as VP was pushing through bad decisions that cost many lives, civilian & military.

  20. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    SO. What's going on, here? What do you call this? It's called fucking
    GENOCIDE.
    It's time to call this what it is.
    I respectfully disagree.

    Please don't use TikTok as your source. There's a hell of a lot of disinformation going on. It's practically a second layer of this war, waged in the information space. Please be resilient to it.

    So, Israel was attacked and is now (after the bloodbath of october 7th and the fact that rockets are being fired on its land every day since then) defending itself.

    You may very well discuss and criticize the way they're doing it (note: they're in a dilemma). And of course dead civilians are a tragedy. And I'm not defending the way IDF is handling its defense. But calling this a genocide is either stupid or malicious. I'm sorry.

    Also, please get the facts straight, that...

    ...Hamas hides among civilians, therefore deliberately putting them in direct line of fire. They need those pictures of killed people for said war in your information space. To manipulate you. Did they succeed?
    ...Hamas used civilian infrastructure such as hospitals and schools for hideouts and weapon deposits, therefore provoking strikes on those buildings. IDF didn't even bomb hospitals ('cause there's proof Hamas brought hostages there) but sent in its soldiers to clear the area.
    ...Hamas must have known what would follow 10/07. Still, they were going through with it. They have no interest in peace. They have no interest in protecting their own people. That much is clear for all to see (now).

    When I talk with my students about this war, I try to explain how this conflict is a perfect example of an ambiguous event rather than black and white (which is what many people try to paint it as). What I mean is...

    ...you can condemn Hamas, what they did and rightfully call them a terrorist organization that's doing crimes against humanity in hopes of destroying Israel and eradicating jews. Because they're racist, fundamentalistic, antisemitic fucks.
    ...you can also support the Palestians' cause. Of course a Palestinian state needs to happen. That's justice. It won't happen with Hamas tho. So why cheering for them?
    ...you can defend Israels right to exist and live in peace. You fucking should support this. See those LGBTQ+ guys cheering for Hamas? Those people wouldn't last a day in Gaza. Some Arab countries imprison or execute homosexuals ffs. How can you cheer for those guys over a state that grants more freedom to Arabs than Arabic countries do??
    ...you can also condemn Israel's current government and the settlements/settlers in the West Bank. They're most likely also racist, fundamentalistic fucks that stand in the way of peace.

    What I'm trying to say is this: Please don't give in to oversimplified readings of what's going on today and went down in history. It's not just "oppressors vs. oppressed". It's waaaay more complicated than that.

  21. #831
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    I respectfully disagree.

    Please don't use TikTok as your source. There's a hell of a lot of disinformation going on. It's practically a second layer of this war, waged in the information space. Please be resilient to it.

    So, Israel was attacked and is now (after the bloodbath of october 7th and the fact that rockets are being fired on its land every day since then) defending itself.

    You may very well discuss and criticize the way they're doing it (note: they're in a dilemma). And of course dead civilians are a tragedy. And I'm not defending the way IDF is handling its defense. But calling this a genocide is either stupid or malicious. I'm sorry.

    Also, please get the facts straight, that...

    ...Hamas hides among civilians, therefore deliberately putting them in direct line of fire. They need those pictures of killed people for said war in your information space. To manipulate you. Did they succeed?
    ...Hamas used civilian infrastructure such as hospitals and schools for hideouts and weapon deposits, therefore provoking strikes on those buildings. IDF didn't even bomb hospitals ('cause there's proof Hamas brought hostages there) but sent in its soldiers to clear the area.
    ...Hamas must have known what would follow 10/07. Still, they were going through with it. They have no interest in peace. They have no interest in protecting their own people. That much is clear for all to see (now).

    When I talk with my students about this war, I try to explain how this conflict is a perfect example of an ambiguous event rather than black and white (which is what many people try to paint it as). What I mean is...

    ...you can condemn Hamas, what they did and rightfully call them a terrorist organization that's doing crimes against humanity in hopes of destroying Israel and eradicating jews. Because they're racist, fundamentalistic, antisemitic fucks.
    ...you can also support the Palestians' cause. Of course a Palestinian state needs to happen. That's justice. It won't happen with Hamas tho. So why cheering for them?
    ...you can defend Israels right to exist and live in peace. You fucking should support this. See those LGBTQ+ guys cheering for Hamas? Those people wouldn't last a day in Gaza. Some Arab countries imprison or execute homosexuals ffs. How can you cheer for those guys over a state that grants more freedom to Arabs than Arabic countries do??
    ...you can also condemn Israel's current government and the settlements/settlers in the West Bank. They're most likely also racist, fundamentalistic fucks that stand in the way of peace.

    What I'm trying to say is this: Please don't give in to oversimplified readings of what's going on today and went down in history. It's not just "oppressors vs. oppressed". It's waaaay more complicated than that.
    With all due respect:
    And i respectfully still call this genocide, or, at the VERY least, a HARDCORE example of ethnic cleansing.

    I was a journalism major and have been a free palestine cat since i was in high school. I've read several books on this subject over the last 30 years, followed the news, and taken in dozens of documentaries since the nineties.
    As of late, i've OBSESSIVELY followed this horrific chapter of the Israel/Palestine saga.
    Remember: i'm disabled, and can't work. So, many days since 10-7, i've done NOTHING but read every news story and watch every AP/Reuters/Forbes etc video i can find on the subject, until my wife makes me stop.

    If anything, i'm TOO informed on this issue. It's been part of my mind for most of my life, and since THIS shit popped off, it's been a mild obsession.

    And, lol, i don't fucking HAVE tik tok. I've quite literally never touched it. Hell, i don't have a cell phone. I don't scroll through twitter or instagram or any of that shit. I post HERE, and sometimes on facefuck.
    I only mentioned tik tok because i've seen some of the videos displayed/mentioned on a reliable news source. (edit: and the shit i saw was HORRIFICALLY fucked up, and it wasn't dead bodies).

    My sources are the AP, Reuters, Bloomberg, Forbes, WSJ, NYT, WP, Politico, Haaretz, and many others, along with a couple of independent news channels like Breaking Points and the like, and TRUST ME, i could, and have, get into an ABSURD amount of nuance, here. I swear to god i got callouses on my fingers, debating this issue with @burnmotherfucker! through email in late october.
    Tens of thousands of words were exchanged.

    The reason i'm presenting it in simple terms here, and on facebook, is that people aren't being exposed to the simplest current issue, as it's literally being censored by legacy media.
    CNN was caught in a deal with the IDF wherein EVERYTHING they showed or said about this conflict had to be approved by an Israeli censor. (i can't help but wonder if other tv news outlets followed suit).

    With all due respect, i take issue with your assertion that Hamas was/is using hospitals as "hideouts" and "command and control centers."
    al-Shifa, was supposed to be the main nerve, right? But when they did their raid, There were NO HAMAS MEMBERS there, and there were NOT tunnels underneath it connected to OTHER "terrorist hideouts", per investigative reporting done by the WP. (There was no Hamas presence and no evidence that any tunnel could be accessed from the hospital).
    AND REMEMBER: a MILITARY attacking a hospital is a fuuuuuuuuucked up war crime that hasn't happened in DECADES.
    And we're talking about the FIRST hospital they fucked off.
    They used THAT as a precedent to proceed to fuck off MOST of the hospitals in Gaza.
    Oh, and according to the IDF, the first hospital ADMINISTRATOR "said he was a Hamas fighter."
    Quite the double life, eh? I wonder what they did to him to make him say that, IF he said it.
    I believe fucking off the hospitals is a big ass part of the POINT of claiming there were Hamas fighters in hospitals.
    I DO know that two hostages and two Hamas members were spotted at al-Shifa VERY early on, but again, the shit the IDF said did NOT line up with the findings of the investigation.
    It was just a big fucking hospital with sick people in it, and satellite buildings with people receiving healthcare. Then it wasn't. There's a badass mass grave next to it and a pic of some dead babies in that article, though.

    ALSO, The "human shield" argument doesn't hold water. If there are eight alleged terrorists like hiding among 100 people, just chilling you don't fucking kill the other 92 people. And they'd have to be doing that ENDLESSLY. Like, what? That scenario happened 300 times?

    We ALSO now know that Netanyahu KNEW about 10-7 for a YEAR. He also fucking FUNDED HAMAS. Fact check me if you like.
    This is EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED. This is the man who, arguably, singlehandedly fucked off the Oslo Accords.

    We could debate history and nuance and such, sure.

    But the bottom line is this: Israel is indiscriminately killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians with bombs 4 times the size of what the fucking USA deems appropriate for urban combat.
    -They are starving them to death by enacting protocols to deny aid like food and medicine.
    -They are denying them access to clean water.
    -They told civilians to go south, where they'd be safe, and then, bombed those civilians as they HEADED south.
    Then, they BOMBED THE SOUTH.
    -They've killed civilians, not Hamas fighters, at a rate of 92%. (going by Euro Med Monitor).
    What this IS, is utterly indiscriminate bombing, with a dash of destroying infrastructure.
    They BOMB REFUGEE CAMPS, killing dozens of women and children, and say that they killed "a hamas commander" or some shit, without giving a name.

    SECONDLY,
    -the fucking Israeli Defense Minister said they were fighting "HUMAN ANIMALS."
    -Former PM Bennet was "annoyed by any questions on civilian deaths," saying it didn't MATTER, as the IDF was fighting "Nazis."
    -Netanyahu said "THERE ARE NO UNINVOLVED CITIZENS."
    -The Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Parliament has repeatedly stated that the idea is to "WIPE GAZA OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH," and that "THERE ARE NO INNOCENTS."
    -Bibi has REPEATEDLY said "REMEMBER AMALEK." If you know the Bible, what he's referring to is an enemy nation of the biblical Israel people group who King Saul commanded to exterminate.
    SO. EXTERMINATE Gaza, in other words.
    -They have floated the idea of NUKING Gaza
    -They have regularly called this the "Gaza Nakba." I assume you get the reference.

    There are dozens and dozens of examples of this rhetoric, and i've no doubt that it will be VERY simple to use these statements to prove intent in the ICJ, that yes, this DOES violate the Genocide Accords because THAT IS WHAT THIS IS.

    Dude, peace in the region has been repeatedly ruined by the far right elements of both sides, historically. I'll give you that. And yes, there are decades of historical nuance.

    But forget how Shiites treat homosexuals. Forget the Nakba and the 40s and Bill Clinton and ALL that shit, because yes, decades of history are important, but NOT in relation to what's happening now. Hell, forget ANYTHING that hasn't happened in the past few months, and look at what this is, what's happening NOW. It IS simple.
    Netanyahu's insane radical, right wing regime wants to kill or displace everyone in Gaza. They've SAID it, and boldly CONTINUE to say it. They've made their intentions VERY clear. They've done what they said they would, and CONTINUE TO DO IT.
    This regime is killing tens of thousands of innocent people: over 90% per many outlets, destroying their homes and infrastructure, quite literally bulldozing the land and planting THEIR flag, EVERYWHERE.
    This part? It IS black and white, full stop. It's terrible. It's inhumane. It's ONE HUDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE killed, missing or injured. It's a MILLION people huddled together near Raffa, praying to maybe get a little food and water as they grieve for the dead, all the while praying THEY aren't bombed. It IS genocide/ethnic cleansing, and it HAS TO STOP.THAT is what i want people to see, and that's why i present it in simple terms.

    And, with all due respect, and i REALLY, REALLY mean that- your talking points on the hospital issue, and the human shield bit? They fly in the face of some REALLY good investigative journalism conducted by some of the most respected extant news organizations. You should look into it.

    Please understand that i mean NO offense with anything i'm saying here. We've had some good conversations over the years, here, and i understand that this is a delicate issue. And i'm not IN Israel. Maybe the NYT and the AP and such are misinformed. Who fucking knows? Maybe the reporters fucked up. You can certainly go on and believe Bibi's narrative: i ain't mad at ya, but i respectfully STRONGLY disagree.

    And like, I just kind of feel like we've been trained to support Israel no matter what, and to trust what they say, etc, because they're DAMN NEAR a US vassal state since before we were born, and this country is still mostly made up of self identified christians, (like myself, mind you), who have been taught to support Israel no matter what. I don't know WHAT the fuck i'd think if i were Jewish. But, from my research, this is not the Israel of the bible, and Yeshua came from the land of Palestine.
    But Netanyahu is a fucking lunatic, and what he's doing is something that should have stayed in the past.

    edit: and i can't continue debating this with you, man. There's no way we're going to change out minds. I mostly wanted to make it clear that i'm not somebody who saw this on tik tok and joined a twitter group or whatever, and is now sending thoughts and prayers. My dad turned me on to the PLO when i was about 10 years old, and it stuck. I'm about to turn 44.
    Last edited by elevenism; 01-16-2024 at 03:18 AM.

  22. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    I respectfully disagree.

    Please don't use TikTok as your source. There's a hell of a lot of disinformation going on. It's practically a second layer of this war, waged in the information space. Please be resilient to it.

    So, Israel was attacked and is now (after the bloodbath of october 7th and the fact that rockets are being fired on its land every day since then) defending itself.

    You may very well discuss and criticize the way they're doing it (note: they're in a dilemma). And of course dead civilians are a tragedy. And I'm not defending the way IDF is handling its defense. But calling this a genocide is either stupid or malicious. I'm sorry.

    Also, please get the facts straight, that...

    ...Hamas hides among civilians, therefore deliberately putting them in direct line of fire. They need those pictures of killed people for said war in your information space. To manipulate you. Did they succeed?
    ...Hamas used civilian infrastructure such as hospitals and schools for hideouts and weapon deposits, therefore provoking strikes on those buildings. IDF didn't even bomb hospitals ('cause there's proof Hamas brought hostages there) but sent in its soldiers to clear the area.
    ...Hamas must have known what would follow 10/07. Still, they were going through with it. They have no interest in peace. They have no interest in protecting their own people. That much is clear for all to see (now).

    When I talk with my students about this war, I try to explain how this conflict is a perfect example of an ambiguous event rather than black and white (which is what many people try to paint it as). What I mean is...

    ...you can condemn Hamas, what they did and rightfully call them a terrorist organization that's doing crimes against humanity in hopes of destroying Israel and eradicating jews. Because they're racist, fundamentalistic, antisemitic fucks.
    ...you can also support the Palestians' cause. Of course a Palestinian state needs to happen. That's justice. It won't happen with Hamas tho. So why cheering for them?
    ...you can defend Israels right to exist and live in peace. You fucking should support this. See those LGBTQ+ guys cheering for Hamas? Those people wouldn't last a day in Gaza. Some Arab countries imprison or execute homosexuals ffs. How can you cheer for those guys over a state that grants more freedom to Arabs than Arabic countries do??
    ...you can also condemn Israel's current government and the settlements/settlers in the West Bank. They're most likely also racist, fundamentalistic fucks that stand in the way of peace.

    What I'm trying to say is this: Please don't give in to oversimplified readings of what's going on today and went down in history. It's not just "oppressors vs. oppressed". It's waaaay more complicated than that.
    WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFF

    This is a load of bullshit. These are the standard talking points fed to you/us by the Israeli gov't, Biden admin & the Zionist cause in general. I won't bother to dissect these SUPER thin statements b/c @elevenism already pushed back well enough, plus really none of what you regurgitated up there actually addresses the specific, salient points that elevenism wrote.

    It's actually creepy how similar these talking points are spewed up by Israel defenders. Like they all got indoctrinated the same way or something. The shit I've gotten in my DM's is almost exactly like the above.

    The Hamas talking points are especially rich b/c they end up equating the two sides. No one thinks Hamas is a reputable group worth defending. We may understand the desperation in which they operate b/c of the cruel conditions which Gaza is kept underfoot by Israel, but still their attacks are terrorism & def. not ok. But Israel holds itself up as a fully realized crown jewel country of Western style freedom, democracy & progressive ideals in the heart of the Middle East. Their actions betray this notion wholeheartedly, and that is why they have faced such a backlash. Plus, people like the above pretend that there isn't a massive military disparity btwn them & Hamas. Tell me @r_z , hwo many Israeli's have been killed since after the initial assault by Hamas ended on like 10/8 or 10/9? Riiiiiiiight, I thought so. And how many Palestinians? But that's b/c Hamas hides in hospitals right?

    Here's a simple point for people to consider....the nations of the UN have repeatedly, for years & years but especially recently, almost completely one-sided-ly voted against Israel for what they've done to Palestinians. Not just this current genocidal bombing campaign, of which there are alot of votes condemning Israel, but for various horrors & practices they've unleashed on Palestinians over the years. I'm talking votes like 164 to 7. The entire EU is consistently voting against Israel. Stuff like that. But all these countries just hate Jews, right? That's the reason I'm sure I'll get in response. Not b/c we can all see with our own two eyes what is happening.

    Better yet, all the Biden admin/state dept staff that have pushed back internally and/or wrote protest letters or even resigned since 10/7....they all hate Jews too right? It couldn't POSSIBLY be b/c Israel is actually wrong here, right?

    Oh, and I'm Jewish, so that angle won't work either. I love the reaction I've gotten from people when discussing the genocide in Gaza once I mention that if they didn't know already. A whole bunch of arguments get thrown right out the window with that.
    @elevenism , the only tool we have at the moment is to complain to our congresspeople & senators. Unfortunately, it's useless for you in West Texas, but can be powerful for those of us in less red parts of the country. The demand for a ceasefire is already building in the Dem party. Awful war hawk Centrist-at-best Dems like f'ing Spanberger, Moulton & Slotkin are out there pushing for Israel to stop, not just leftist politicians. They are the only ones to put that pressure on Biden. It might do nothing b/c Biden seems pretty intent on backing the Zionist cause all the way, but it's the only option other than civil disobedience etc.

  23. #833
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbie solo View Post
    No one thinks Hamas is a reputable group worth defending. We may understand the desperation in which they operate b/c of the cruel conditions which Gaza is kept underfoot by Israel, but still their attacks are terrorism & def. not ok. But Israel holds itself up as a fully realized crown jewel country of Western style freedom, democracy & progressive ideals in the heart of the Middle East. Their actions betray this notion wholeheartedly
    See, we're not that far apart, at least when it comes to Hamas. And when you talk about Israel you probably mean its government, so that's another point, where we're not that far apart. Surely, you're aware how controversial Netanjahu's actions are received in Israel itself.

    My problem with statememts like the ones offered here by you two guys has to do with another notion: Many people are judging this conflict in terms of (post-)colonialism and/or anticapitalism. Therefore Israel becomes the oppressor, while people equate Palestinians with the oppressed/colonised. Apart from being an alarmingly undercomplex reading of history this viewpoint makes people blind for context.

    For example, the point was being made about Israel having the far superior military power (as in "what colonisers do"). It's true, of course. But they ammassed that kind of power for a reason - because every arab state wanted to eradicate Israel off the earth. No IDF, no Israel. Facts.

    This view also confuses rape and murder with fighting for freedom. It lacks to see how Palestine leaders had every opportunity to have a Palestinian state already, but blew it. It fails to acknowledge how Israel and Egypt somehow were able to work out peace. It fails to take into question how children in Gaza and the Westbank (and many other arabic countries) are subjected to an education that teaches them to hate jews. It screams "apartheid", but fades out the fact that Arabs living in Israel have the same right to vote as Israelis do. It makes a trend out of hating on Israel and standing for Palestine, because it's easy when everything is black and white. It turns young and actually educated people into hatemongers that tear down posters of Israeli hostages. It turns people into easy targets for propaganda and disinformation.

    Again, I'm not supporting the ongoing war or the way Israel is handling its self defense. Just put things in perspective for a second. Try to understand the other side. You might be Jewish but did you live in Israel? Were you subjected to air raids? Was your best friend burnt alive just for being Jewish? Your child abducted and raped? Even though you've been a vocal critic of Westbank settlement and supporter of a two state solution?

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    The last time I contributed to this thread, I said that I believed the Israeli forces only issued warnings about bombings to absolve themselves of any civilian collateral damage their strikes incurred - my underlying contention being that the IDF and Israeli government do not actually give two shits about the lives of Palestinian civilians beyond the PR hassle of excusing their destruction and sweeping them under the rug. I was told that I couldn't know that for sure, that I was wrong. Somebody implied that advocating for Palestinians was naive, that to do so was being a useful idiot for Hamas manipulated by their social media propaganda. Several weeks have passed, and the body count in Gaza is now more than twenty times that of the October 7th attack, the overwhelming majority innocent civilians who had no meaningful connection to Hamas's attack whatsoever.

    No, I can't point you to a direct quote spelling out that Israel is indifferent to the humanitarian crisis it is perpetuating in Gaza, but I can trust what I see before my own eyes. Israel lashes out at its critics by saying they are minimizing the attack they endured and that nothing can justify or rationalize the deaths of over a thousand Israelis, and yet simultaneously there is quite literally no end to the amount of Palestinian deaths they believe are justified and rationalized by Israeli self-defense. Against South Africa's charges of genocide it claims it is fighting a war against Hamas and not the populace of Gaza, but continue to defend a brand of warfare they know kills many times more civilians than Hamas militants as valid and necessary. At every turn, Zionist extremists and their enthusiastic representation in Netanyahu's government are telling us that tens of thousands of dead Palestinians are not a deal breaker for them. They. Do. Not. Care. They only pay lip service to the issue to placate their Western allies' (exceedingly meek) pretense of humanitarian concern, so they can frame themselves as the moral authority.

    "But Israel's in a tough place! They have to defend themselves, and Hamas makes sure they shelter with civilians so that whenever Israel strikes, Hamas can point a camera and say 'LOOK WHAT ISRAEL DID' and manipulate dolts like you via social media! Israel can't do anything without criticism but they need to be able to protect themselves and get the hostages home!" No one is debating that Hamas is a regressive terrorist group with radical, violent beliefs and practices, or that they shelter with civilians. But you have to know there are Zionist extremists (well represented in Israel's government, especially its current insane form) who have designs for the Palestinian territories every bit as genocidal as Hamas's designs for Israel, who are vastly more empowered on every level to enact those horrific plans, and who relish the excuse Hamas's tactics afford them when their strikes slaughter civilians. Hamas chooses to use the Palestinian people as shields. That is worthy of condemnation. Israel chooses not to care, bomb them anyway, and place all the responsibility for the civilian dead on Hamas. That is also worthy of condemnation.

    And frankly the framing of Israel's policy of carpet bombing Gaza as their only option for "self defense" is insane. I desperately want to see the hostages who are still alive make it home. The only reason any have been released isn't because of Israel's punitive military campaign. It's because of prisoner exchanges, and because of the hostage families, who faced steep criticism from their own people as they implored their government to handle the crisis in a way that wasn't going to see their own loved ones blown up too. Continuing to blow the shit out of Gaza and telling Hamas that they will continue to do so once all the hostages are returned is doing the opposite of bringing them home, it's giving Hamas zero incentive to release them and all but ensuring they will die at the hands of their captors or in the reckless, devastating strikes Israel is showering Gaza in (Hamas officials have already claimed that hostages were killed in Israeli strikes which seems horribly plausible to me despite Israel naturally claiming it is propaganda - the IDF has managed to kill hostages it encountered face-to-face, do we really think none of the hostages have been killed by a bombing campaign that has seen the entire region devastated, specifically targeting the group holding them?).

    Israel is clearly losing the conversation on this issue domestically and the response has been this broad and rather insane attempt to codify any pro-Palestinian statements or phrases as being antisemitic hate speech, which is obviously nonsense to anyone engaging with the crisis in good faith. Some of the largest protests against what Israel is doing have been organized by Jewish groups, and just in this thread we see Jewish advocates who refuse to let Israel claim it speaks for them. The notion that Jewish people are or ought to be loyal to Israel just because they are Jewish is deeply fucked. But that doesn't fit the narrative of a movement that has a place for John "God sent Hitler to create Israel" Hagee, which will happily embrace someone who parrots hideous antisemitism like Elon Musk as long as he believes killing every living thing in Gaza is an appropriate definition of Israeli self-defense. So now the hand-wringing about the so-called "implied genocide" of "from the river to the sea" has reached such a furor that they'll censure Rashida Tlaib for it. Meanwhile Israel is holding private talks on the possibility of a "voluntary migration" (that a loaded enough euphemism for you?) of Palestinians to the Democratic Republic of the fucking Congo.

    Israel's government and Zionists respond to the outrage over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza the same way that US police forces respond to protests against police brutality and police murders of innocent people. Their response indicates that they don't just think the human toll of their policies is acceptable - they think it is a necessary component. Maybe you can argue the term genocide is not apt for what is happening in Gaza, but it's a damn sight more accurate than calling it "Israeli self-defense."

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckrh View Post
    I have no love for the GOP but Biden is as big, if not bigger, a warmonger as any of those guys. I read a book by Jake Tapper, can't remember title, that was about Afghanistan. It had several instances where Biden as VP was pushing through bad decisions that cost many lives, civilian & military.
    Sadly accurate. One thing is for sure, Biden completely blew any opportunity he had to show that his administration would have handled this any differently than the Republicans. Cheerleading Israel is a bipartisan consensus among our elected officials, one they are increasingly at odds with their constituents over.

    EDIT: In response to the message posted while I composed this:

    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    You might be Jewish but did you live in Israel? Were you subjected to air raids? Was your best friend burnt alive just for being Jewish? Your child abducted and raped? Even though you've been a vocal critic of Westbank settlement and supporter of a two state solution?
    For my own part I cannot say from experience what being an Israeli citizen or a Jewish person is like. But if one had the choose between living as a Jewish person in Israel or as a Muslim person in the Gaza strip, I think it's pretty obvious which one any rational person would choose. Whatever hardships the Israeli people have endured, it's hard to compare their status quo to that of Gaza's. October 7th was a horrific attack - the worst in Israel's history. It is an exception to the usual state of things, not the rule. The Palestinian people have been enduring various states of humanitarian crisis for decades now, with the post October 7th war embodying a steep and horrendous escalation. The gulf between the realities of life in both territories could not be more stark (I appreciate your point about not getting one's news from social media but as this plays out it has been an important tool in challenging what had always been the prevailing media framing and allowing the people on the ground to illustrate a collective picture that cannot in its totality be dismissed as Hamas propaganda).

    I've looked at things from both sides and I know in my heart that the state of being the people in Gaza exist in is vastly more unacceptable than the state of being the people in Israel exist in. A Jewish American may not know what it's like to be an Israeli. Maybe no one in this thread does. But one thing I know for sure is that no one in this thread has any idea what is like to be living in Gaza and unfortunately that's something we should all be grateful for.
    Last edited by Deacon Blackfire; 01-16-2024 at 04:48 PM.

  25. #835
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    @r_z I think that the main, bottom line, is that, YES, Hamas is horrifically awful, and rightly called a terror group. And yes, 10-7 was insanely fucked up.

    But the vast, overwhelming majority of Gazans are NOT Hamas fighters.
    Many Gazans may have even expressed SUPPORT for Hamas, as Gazans WERE living under Apartheid conditions, already.

    But, that doesn't make them terrorists. 1400 people were killed on 10-7. That's awful.
    HOWEVER, the solution to that is NOT utterly razing the entire region to the ground, leaving THIRTY THOUSAND known dead (and counting, with tens of thousands more missing), with only about TWO thousand of the dead being involved with Hamas, while displacing another MILLION (and counting), and PURPOSEFULLY denying THEM food, water, electricity, medicine, and cool shit like that.
    And THEN, when it becomes clear that the mass death and displacement is a feature, not a bug, well...
    @bobbie solo , @stankeybearlover , @Deacon Blackfire and @chuckrh , myself, and others who were talking about this weeks ago...aren't Hamas supporters, or denying that their attacks have been grim.

    We just don't see genocide or ethnic cleansing, or considering dropping a nuke as an appropriate response.
    (I don't wanna speak for you guys, but that's the vibe I'm getting).

    Also
    You asked if solo had lost a friend to hamas. I haven't lost a friend to EITHER side, but dude, I DO have a very dear friend who is Palestinian (who got out years ago). And man, let's just say that IDF atrocities are nothing new.

    Edit: @r_z i gave your response a like, but i DO have to bring something up: you say Palestine blew their chance at statehood? But if you're speaking of the Oslo Accords, WHAT happened in 93?
    The agreement was signed, and within six months, a Far Right Israeli dissenter murdered 29 people, including kids, and wounded 125 others, as they prayed at an ancient Mosque, during fucking RAMADAN, in Hebron, in the West Bank (see Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre).
    And PALESTINE blew their chance at statehood?
    And who had just been named Leader of the Opposition Party (Likud, aka the cats in power, NOW) in Parliament?
    An upstart Far Right lunatic named Benjamin Netanyahu- a self proclaimed Zionist who'd been giving "fuck the Palestinians" speeches to huge, angry audiences.
    Hell, they're on Youtube.
    Funny how THAT all progressed.
    Last edited by elevenism; 01-17-2024 at 08:36 AM.

  26. #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    you say Palestine blew their chance at statehood? But if you're speaking of the Oslo Accords, WHAT happened in 93?
    The agreement was signed, and within six months, a Far Right Israeli dissenter murdered 29 people, including kids, and wounded 125 others, as they prayed at an ancient Mosque, during fucking RAMADAN, in Hebron, in the West Bank (see Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre).
    And PALESTINE blew their chance at statehood?
    And who had just been named Leader of the Opposition Party (Likud, aka the cats in power, NOW) in Parliament?
    An upstart Far Right lunatic named Benjamin Netanyahu- a self proclaimed Zionist who'd been giving "fuck the Palestinians" speeches to huge, angry audiences.
    Hell, they're on Youtube.
    Funny how THAT all progressed.
    Yeah, I didn't mean Oslo '93 as I know about people on both sides used this process to sabotage the treaty - Netanyahu and his people being the ones on Israel's side. I was referring to what Barak offered Arafat in 2000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    Yeah, I didn't mean Oslo '93 as I know about people on both sides used this process to sabotage the treaty - Netanyahu and his people being the ones on Israel's side. I was referring to what Barak offered Arafat in 2000.
    Although Israel DID start it in 93. These groups were NEVER going to get along, though, once far right nationalism took hold of both sides.

    SO.
    I just caught a piece of news that Israel plans to "strip Gaza of its military governing capabilities, and are also preparing to fight Lebanon." And they're talking about this extending "THROUGH 2025."

    Let's think about the ramifications.
    Cargo ships can't use nearby shipping lanes because the ships keep fucking getting blown up by Yemeni rebels, raising shipping prices, period.
    This will INEVITABLY lead to "supply chain issues," and more inflation in the US.

    Then, there's the inevitable terror attacks. I'm not talking about the "Hamas fights back" type, either. I'm talking about Western Europe and the US getting touched.
    I doubt we'll see another 9/1I, but I'd bet my life that there are some REALLY pissed off, for instance, Jordanian and Lebanese Americans. Hell, it's already started, I think: there was that spate of people driving vehicles into groups of people watching xmas parades. I didn't follow up, but DID notice they didn't offer names or motives.
    There's also the possibility of something bigger being pulled off by trained terrorists in retaliation for this shit. I hate to say it, but there REALLY is a border crisis, not to mention people passing as Ukrainian refugees or some shit.
    But, yeah. If we don't see at least multiple SMALL scale attacks (mass shootings, etc.) I'll eat one of my fucking Dallas Mavericks hats, or 214 hats, or one that just says Dallas, or a Dallas Cowboys hat...or my ACTUAL cowboy hat. (Jesus, why are ALL my ball caps Dallas related)?
    Sorry. I had to inject some humor into that godawful, but likely, prediction.

    None of this is good for anybody. I'm STILL trying to figure out why we're facilitating this "war," or how it helps the US. I mean, there HAS to be SOME ultimate goal/ulterior motive, right?
    But, as it stands, here's my scorecard: I've got funding a MASSIVE atrocity, straining relations with the entire Shiite world and other regional allies, putting our troops at risk, worsening an already failing economy, and endangering American and European civilians.

    This is where our...tax...dollars... are going, instead of like health care and shit? They'd rather buy us inflation and terror attacks?
    Am I missing something, here?
    Last edited by elevenism; 01-17-2024 at 10:18 AM.

  28. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    I'm STILL trying to figure out why we're facilitating this "war," or how it helps the US. I mean, there HAS to be SOME ultimate goal/ulterior motive, right?
    It is often argued that a (geo)politically stable Middle East would be a serious threat to the west's hold over world trade. Heck, the age of exploration/colonization was even ignited by the drive of European powers to outcompete Middle Eastern traders.

    Of course (as is generally acknowledged in this thread), there are various more dimensions to this conflict of which the weight can't be discounted.

  29. #839
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    Quote Originally Posted by stankeybearlover View Post
    It is often argued that a (geo)politically stable Middle East would be a serious threat to the west's hold over world trade. Heck, the age of exploration/colonization was even ignited by the drive of European powers to outcompete Middle Eastern traders.

    Of course (as is generally acknowledged in this thread), there are various more dimensions to this conflict of which the weight can't be discounted.
    This, to me, is the only possible clear goal: we might want a "stable" middle east, done OUR way-in a way that benefits us.
    Countries are tired of that, though, and i mean countries all over the WORLD, from China and Russia, to Saudi Arabia, to Brazil and Argentina.

    This post and its associated links will be quite boring, but the eventual implications will potentially change the world as we know it.

    The word, here, is de-dollarization.

    And what it MEANS is, the end of the US molding the world in its image, for its own benefit: something we've enjoyed PRETTY much since the end of WW2, and for our entire lifetimes, and the lifetimes of most of our parents.

    This is Saudi Arabia, for instance, (for several reasons-that could be its own long post), breaking away from the west and moving towards Russia and China.
    Remember, they traded oil for yuan, and perhaps, more importantly, not in DOLLARS, for the first time ever in '23.
    And this is ALL of these other countries looking to break away from the west, and, eventually, for instance, render western sanctions useless.

    I've mentioned the BRICS alliance in this thread, many times. This is was, originally an informal "club" of trading partners and such, but things have changed.
    Part of their mission statement, NOW, is to "provide a counterbalance to western influence," and things have become PRETTY fucking FORMAL. THese days, they are a SERIOUS financial bloc that makes up like nearly half the fucking world's population, a decent chunk of global GDP. THEY now have yearly meetings, just like the G7, and are becoming an actual rival to it.
    They pose a SERIOUS threat to the western world, and worldwide finance as we know it.
    It's boring to read economic shit, but THIS is the actual birth of the NWO, except it isn't a conspiracy theory, and it has the potential to change everything.

    They've also been planning a new reserve currency for a few years, now, and seem to wish for this currency to replace the petrodollar, and the dollar itself as the world reserve currency. Furthermore, many economists predict that this WILL happen.

    I know...the second article i linked is pretty boring, but i'm laying out the general plan as i understand it, here.
    NOW. This wasn't super hardcore when this group began, with only Brazil/Russia/India/China/South Africa, but they have, little by little, increased their influence-they had enough in 2012 to both support and change the workings of the IMF.

    They are calling the current system (aka the Western Control), outdated, and they consider themselves to be an emerging New World Order,
    straight up and openly.

    After careful consideration and such, IRAN and SAUDI ARABIA were granted membership a few weeks ago (remember that THEY are bitter rivals), as did Ethiopia, the UAE, and Egypt. Argentina was granted membership as well, but they left the group after some wooing from the US and such, iirc.

    NOW, MANY countries formally submitted applications to join BRICS, and many more have openly expressed a DESIRE to join, but, from what we know, are not YET actively being considered. (read-i'd goddamn sure imagine some of them ARE).

    I've had my eye on this for a hot minute, and what we MAY be looking at IS an organized Middle Eastern/North African Geopolitical Bloc, that already includes fucking Russia, India, and China, and couple of BIG ass pieces of the Middle East, with aspirations of getting hold of a LOT more of it. (And don't sleep on the African countries: one isn't a big deal, but ten? Twenty? MOST of Africa, in the near future?)
    Also, JESUS. Cuba is close to home. And they're CLEARY courting South American nations).

    The new currency they wish to introduce will, unlike the dollar, be backed by commodities-China is buying all the gold it can get its hands on.

    Also, courting Argentina was a bold move. But look at this list, and think about it.
    It's already Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the UAE in that (greater near east/far east) region.
    1-1-25 may well include Belarus, Kuwait, Turkey, Syria, and Lybia, (plus Venezuela and CUBA, ffs).

    Oh jesus. In explaining this, i forgot to mention my theory, which is this: WE are funding Israel because we actually DESIRE a regional conflict, to get control over EVERY country in that region, including Iran, to stop the BRICS' de-dollarization movement. This could ALSO explain our position on Russia. If my theory is right, this will continue, no matter who is president.

    edit-sorry this post/list is so goddamned long; i went back to my HS/College newspaper page design days and tried to make this all pretty, and to have the lists side by side with bullet points and shit and spent 40 minutes learning that, no, no matter WHAT i do, VBulletin does NOT function like Adobe Quark. Apologies, and thank you for let me cook.

    OK, so - The BRICS alliance has expressed a desire to drastically expand, and here is the list of potential new members in the near future. And god help.us if this shit should become a MILITARY alliance.

    BEING CONSIDERED FOR MEMBERSHIP
    (known to have submitted formal application for induction on 1-1-25)
    -Afghanistan
    -Algeria
    -Bangladesh
    -Bahrain
    -Belarus
    -Bolivia
    -Cuba
    -Kazakhstan
    -Kuwait
    -Parkistan
    -Palestine
    -Senegal
    -Thailand
    -Senegal
    -Thailand
    -Venezuela
    -Vietnam
    -Nigeria

    HAS OPENLY EXPRESSED DESIRE TO JOIN
    (may or may not have submitted application)
    -Angola
    -Comoros
    -DR Congo
    -Gabon
    -Guinea-Bissau
    -Libya
    -Myanmar (Burma)
    -Nicaragua
    -Tunisia
    -Turkey
    -South Sudan
    -Regular-ass Sudan
    -Syria
    -Somalia
    -Zimbabwe
    Last edited by elevenism; 01-19-2024 at 02:00 PM.

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    So.back to News:

    -Pakistan and Iran sent strikes into one another's countries.
    Of note, here, is the fact that Iran hasn't been touched in almost 45 YEARS, so what they do NEXT will tell us a LOT.
    Damn. So much other shit going on, the escalating tensions weren't even on my radar, (and following this stuff is a...Jesus...I hate to say it, but it's KIND of a hobby)..

    -Ukraine strikes DEEEEEP into Russia, in St Petersburg. Russia threatens nukes again

    -Smokin' hot off the presses, this one: Details released on this year's NATO war rehearsal...I mean, exercise.
    Of Note: -Running from next week through fucking MAY, this is the largest NATO exercise/war games since '88. ( All 31 countries, 90k troops, from the US to the Russian Border.)
    -It's also the largest War Games in recorded history, as far as # of troops involved.
    -Russia threatens to nuke the US...again.
    -Also of note, here, (to me), is the LANGUAGE NATO is using: phrases like "We ARE planning for war," from the Defense Sec stuck out, among others.
    Even the stated goal, "(we)will show that NATO can conduct and sustain complex multi-domain operations over several months, across thousands of kilometers (miles), from the High North to Central and Eastern Europe, and in any conditionis kind of fucking surreal, imho.
    -It's called Steadfast Defender 2024, if you wanna know more
    (I'm tired of looking at it )
    Last edited by elevenism; 01-19-2024 at 06:32 PM.

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