Episode 11 - Left (Cold & Gray)
We discuss the Left side of NIN's The Fragile with special guest @sheepdean
www.underneathitall.org
We are also available on iTunes.
Episode 11 - Left (Cold & Gray)
We discuss the Left side of NIN's The Fragile with special guest @sheepdean
www.underneathitall.org
We are also available on iTunes.
Last edited by OSLIN; 08-06-2015 at 09:59 PM.
This one was awesome.
Gotta say I like when you have more than 3 people on, though. I realize this is dependent on interest and scheduling and one should avoid overcomplicating with lots of people, but maybe like... 1 more in there.
Awesome episode, looking forward to the next one covering Right.
Would just like to say though that you guys all discussed how Pilgrimage might have been written as a song to bridge a gap between songs, which I don't really think is likely at all considering that those two alternate potential tracklistings we're aware of that were being considered before the album was finished had Pilgrimage listed as the ending on both. I've always seen it as something of a victory march for something inherently negative (lots of people have mentioned it bringing Nazi imagery to mind, and the frantic chanting and shouting at the end definitely feels like some winning force of destruction cheering), and with it being a possible ending thematically it could very well be the idea of making a pilgrimage into darkness/hopelessness so to speak, giving in and entering into this new, fucked up version of things that so much of The Fragile seems to be about, with arriving at that raw, ugly place at the end that you were in from the beginning. It's like submitting/succumbing to that side of things. Just my take on it. Regardless I doubt it was ever meant as an interlude/bridge of sorts. It's definitely a full-fledged, stand-alone or singular track that isn't dependent on any others and meant as that.
@sheepdean good God that Just Like You Imagined trivia was something I have never heard before, where'd you find that out? Any way of getting the levels correct and uploading it to YT or somewhere for people to hear it? I know there's that segment of the song with sort of sped up, distorted or chopped up vocals kind of whispered, is that the part?
What's this about JLYI?
FINALLY have the next episode ready to go, as soon as it finishes bouncing out of ProTools.
took me over 6 hours to edit, but it's a good one! hopefully @OSLIN will be able to get it up before the end of the week.
Episode 12 - Right (with Decay)
We discuss the Right side of NIN's The Fragile with special guest @sheepdean
We also talk about some remixes and Still.
www.underneathitall.org
We are also available on iTunes.
Enjoyable discussion as usual, gentlemen.
I can't believe you are so into the transition between "Starfuckers" and "Complication," though. That and the one from SD to TDTWWA are two of the worst things about the TF running order; obviously C and SFI are conceptually related – C basically sounds like a cocaine party – but the non-musical (i.e. rhythmically nonsensical) transition is just stupid imo. They are very much smushed together for the continuity rather than musical sense, and it's very forced (arguably the point, though!).
It is a little bit annoying to shift so rapidly between those songs, even if conceptually correct (gotta disagree on "Somewhat Damaged" into "TDtWWA", though, because that is a ballin' segue). The B-side version of "Starfuckers" from Halo 13 that fades into crowd noise before "Complication" starts albeit in a shorter, teased form feels more like a natural juxtaposition.
I replaced the B-side version with the version on the Right side. I never liked that abrupt ending. Complication now has a slight fade in.
Great episode guys - probably the best yet.
Particularly enjoyed the encyclopedic observations from @sheepdean !
I think the transition of "Starfuckers, Inc" into "Complication" is not terrible but not great either.
On a side note regarding "Starfuckers, Inc.":
I took the first two minutes or so of the Charlie Clouser mix of on Things Falling Apart and made it into a intro/precursor to the album version of "Starfuckers, Inc.". I just loved the intro of that mix and the part where the track breaks down I think fits perfectly into the beginning of "Starfuckers, Inc."
I was going to experiment with the ending of the song as well but have not gotten around to it yet.
Last edited by newmodel87; 10-13-2015 at 02:32 PM.
Thanks! Yeah, @sheepdean is a knowledge beast.
I'm having this problem with iTunes where the most recent podcast episode never plays right - right now, it says that the current episode is 3 hours, 35 minutes long (which is ridiculous, obviously), and it never remembers exactly where I am if I pause and restart. Is anyone else encountering this? It doesn't happen with any other feed I have.
Thank you! I'd say that the ending of "Somewhat Damaged" is really over-the-top in its aggressive, spiteful rage... it's the epitome of a trademark NIN assault. From the simmering, almost polite beginning of the album, its emotional intensity relentlessly builds up to this point. Even the song's time signature changes from a tricky 9/4 to a straight-up, stop-fucking-around 4/4 (starting from the beginning of "in the back, off the side..."), whereupon the rage in TR's voice just ramps up to a breaking point. When the lead vocal finally stops spilling its bile, we're left with a chugging mass of punishingly gated electric guitars, sinister, inhuman-sounding backing vocals and sputtering programmed percussion. It leaves me feeling almost breathless each time I listen, it's so great.
Then the mood shifts drastically into the odd, slowly-shifting drone noises that run underneath the beginning of TDWWA, but you're mentally prepared by what you've just heard for the massed chorus of clarion guitars dropping away to lonely plucked mandolin and naked single-track vocal. The downward shift in tempo between the tracks is facilitated by the feeling of a pulsing bass pattern in the drones, not quite in time but anchoring it to a framework, however slight. That vanishes when the drone fades out and the mandolin slowly disappears, but then the crushing guitars slam back in leading to the choral climax. By juxtaposing these two very different tracks together, you immediately notice the common feeling of temporal disruption they share, and the lyrical sense of betrayal and loss. Plus the transition makes you aware of exactly how weird these songs both are, for the two opening tracks on a giant rock album.
Last edited by botley; 10-14-2015 at 03:36 PM.
Hm, that's annoying. If you have an Apple device, the Podcast app works great. As for iTunes, though, I'll defer to @OSLIN for technical support.
Every time I hear it, this is exactly what I think. It was done just to do it. Because NIN segues are "supposed" to be tightly integrated like that, even on remix EPs.
Compared to segues with more symbolic meanings - say, the tempo-mismatched crossfade of TB/IDNWT, where the winner of the battle between man and machine is hinted before the end of IDNWT even confirms it - the SD/TDTWWA drone fade-in is so unnecessary.
The arrangement of SD ultimately used for the album has a hard ending, the typical NIN song cutoff. By the time the song is in 4/4, as you say, it means business, and there is absolutely no extra fat. It states what it needs to state and gets out of the way. TDTWWA, an indecisive song by design - the opening ambience can't even decide between C and C# - opening with a lengthy drone is a total mood change, a swift drop from a height of anger and betrayal to an audible 'pit of despair' that illustrates brilliantly the non-linear emotional state following the loss of someone important. We can group the process into the Kübler-Ross stages of grief but, as that model says itself, the feelings don't work so neatly. Anger doesn't resolve to bargaining and then depression, it seethes under the surface and bubbles back up intermittently.
And this is why the segue borders on inappropriate. The fade-in suggests a far smoother contour - 'smooth' in a relative sense - than the actual emotional contour involved. Expected as it may be, it would actually be conceptually and emotionally more appropriate to use the proper start of the drone (as it appears on Halo 13) right when the last note of SD ends, creating the "Pinion"/"Wish" or HMIAIH/HIS interruption segue. It illustrates more clearly the drop and mood switch by being exactly as exaggerated as the two songs.
So, two things working against me here, besides the fact that TR and Ezrin did it that way and there's no changing it:
1) Using the fade-in instead of the cut segue invokes awkwardness. People can't deal with loss at first. Behaviour becomes erratic. The 'inappropriateness' (as I called it) is kinda accurate.
2) The record illustrates later on (like in the SF/"Complication" segue we were lamenting earlier) that the cut/sudden segues on The Fragile are for songs that express similar emotions. You get a crossfade from the hopeful jazz of LM with the death-resolve of TGB, but sudden movement out of the spiteful acceptance in TBCD to the 'no choice' expression of UIA, two facets occurring simultaneously (or so is my interpretation, anyway).
Separate note: Out of all the segues that bug me, there is no justifying the horrid fade-up of "Pilgrimage" over the last half-bar of ED. Conceptual continuity between them is there - lost my way, may as well head out to somewhere else - so I would say it's actually an example of two songs that should have had the sudden segue like TBCD/UIA.
botley, i think you would be the perfect person to come one and talk with jeff & brian. you're extremely intelligent and you've spent a lot of time dissecting trent's music, so i'm certain you have a vast array of things to say about it. get in touch with any of us to talk about what episode(s) you'd most like to be on and what your schedule is like!
OK, sorry for replying to relatively old post, but i just took proper time to give this topic some attention, better late than never...
I soooo disagree that Pilgrimage is about some army march. I really pity those who are quick to label it as such when they heard some rhythmic crowd noise. But for me it's a vivid picture, always was, never fails to put a smile on my face, let's imagine a marching band instead! A circus coming into this town where life is slow, nothing happens, and kaboom! a carnival in the midnight, when everyone's gets a mask, a funny hat, a face paint and the music is on every corner, everyone cheering, drunk, maybe there a fight somewhere but it's a comic one - for candy and toys, you know. Firebreathers, acrobats, midgets, the show that sucks you in and make you lose mind for a little while. It's a fucking party, guys!
I've always liked "Pilgrimage."
And I've always thought "Starfuckers, Inc." was an excellent song. I understand that it is very different from the rest of the album but I'm always surprised at how many people list this as one of their least favourite NIN tracks.
Last edited by newmodel87; 10-17-2015 at 08:39 PM.