House Always Wins
Originally Posted by orestes
I did! I was wondering when someone would post and bump this thread back up.
I loved it. It's definitely going to be a darker season. The subject matter and season-long enemy presence in Spoiler: Davros will make a big obstacle for the Doctor to overcome.
The Doctor's "axe battle" was the moment of the night.
Administrator
I hope that wasn't the last we saw of Spoiler: Michelle Gomez as Missy
Throbbing Member
I seriously wish that Moffat wouldn't use the ontological paradox to retcon The Doctor into characters' origins like he repeatedly did to retcon Clara into The Doctor's.
It's a two-part episode, so there's still a chance to fix that (though I somewhat doubt it, given that he's put The Doctor at the center of the universe before). But the beginning of the episode seems to set up this situation:
Spoiler: Davros is evil because The Doctor refused to save him as a child because The Doctor knew damn well by that point that Davros was going to grow up to be evil. This would likely result in the "real" reason Davros created the Daleks being to get revenge on The Doctor, even though the Kaleds (who are conveniently not mentioned) were already shown to be jerks prior to Davros presenting the Daleks. Why not attempt an independent, paradox-free origin for once? Or at the very least adapt some expanded universe material (such as Big Finish), since some of the Eighth Doctor's EU companions were officially made canon just two years earlier?
I'm well aware that the show is no stranger using the Stable Time Loop, but it still annoys me when they try to wedge new characters (be it companions or incarnations of The Doctor) into history of the Whoniverse just to show how "special" they are, almost as if Moffat and pals were writing Doctor Who fanfiction. River Song is another repeat offender, but fortunately most of her issues are confined to other Moffat episodes.
Last edited by Patrick_Nicholas; 09-21-2015 at 11:47 AM. Reason: Clarification
Administrator
Re-watching Genesis of the Daleks and I can't help but notice that Davros and the Kaleds look more like Thals in this episode, dressed in army greens and using primitive arms compared to their enemy, for example.
she/her/hers
absolute FAV. makes me giggle with glee.
also: "dude!?"
words.exe
I'm also really, really tired of River being forced by Moffat into everything she can possibly infect. Really glad she didn't end up showing up for Time of the Doctor last season, and the fact that she's showing up YET AGAIN in this upcoming Christmas special is absurd. I've enjoyed Moffat's tenure, but River is the sticking point for me. PlotTwist McIKnowEverything when she's around.
What do you guys think of Spoiler: Clara's departure? I think it's a little too late, considering she had two great departure points in Death in Heaven and Last Christmas, but I've also enjoyed her entire run quite a bit. Might be my favorite new series companion so far, particularly after series eight, when her personality was fleshed out more and she became a stronger character.
Throbbing Member
My thougts on Jenna leaving the show? This really seems like the right time, given that Moffat seems to have done everything in his power make almost everyone else hate Clara's guts by pushing her is the most important person in The Doctor's life and a pesudo love interest who's in a pseudo love triangle with... first: a guy she's barely interacted with on screen, but despite that (and their conversations not quite showing it) her willingness to attempt attempt a double-life and his love for her suddenly becoming strong enough to override cyber-conversion feels like this was supposed to be the greatest love story in the Whoniverse. And now she seems to be in a pseudo love triangle with Missy, who tries to virtually set Clara and The Doctor apart (after supposedly being the one who put them together for whatever reason) so she can have The Doctor for herself, even though The Doctor sure as hell wouldn't let that happen (bromantic subtext with Ten aside).
tl;dr version: I would like Clara better if she was allowed to develop without needing an unconvincing love interest to add drama between her and the darker Doctor even though The Doctor really only wants her to be his companion and for her to understand him.
PS - I don't consider Clara lashing out at The Doctor at the end of "Kill The Moon" and spending most of the following episode talking about how mean he is character development. If anything, this is exactly how s7 Clara would react to Twelve after having been accustomed to the comparitively more idealistic Eleven.
EDIT: My favorite revival companion is probably Captain Jack Harkness with Rory not too far behind, though they can both be considered secondary companions. I have some issues with all the primary companions: Rose acts like she's entitled to be a companion because she was the first companion after the Time War (and because she's also supposed to be the audience surrogade, she also gets the teen fangirls who insist she really is because of what I just mentioned). I kinda like Martha, but the only reason she had for joining the TARDIS is because she was in love with The Doctor, but The Doctor was too busy missing Rose to reciprocate, thus making her seem like an inferior replacement (but at least she was one of the only revival companions to leave the TARDIS without anything bad happening to them to prevent them from coming back). Donna needed some time to develop, but I'm sure pretty much everyone hated how she was written out. Then there's Amy: pretty as she may be, I still have a hard time trying to get past her Season 5 characterization. I don't think she developed considerably besides no longer having the hots for The Doctor after marrying Rory.
Last edited by Patrick_Nicholas; 09-22-2015 at 03:58 PM.
she/her/hers
yes to ALL of this. Donna is my favorite main companion, but captain jack & rory were both fantastic, even as "supporting" or "secondary" companions. and i never really saw rose that way, but i kind of agree. however, she was still pretty great, and a hell of a lot better than amy (who my wife hates so much that it's kind of funny).
Administrator
House Always Wins
For me
Donna Noble > Clara Oswald > Rose Tyler > Amy and Rory > Martha Jones
words.exe
I liked Rose a lot, but I never really saw her as being Ten's proper companion. She took on such a strange role in series two, almost arrogant in how competent of a companion she was. I know that was essentially the point of the earlier episodes, to show that she and the Doctor were making mistakes, and they paid for it in the end, but I didn't like the build up to it. And Martha was almost 100% filler no matter how hard they tried to convince me otherwise, which was a shame, because I think she had a lot more potential than she was given, even in her post-companion appearances. (Plus, paired with Mickey even though they hadn't show an ounce of attraction to each other before? Seriously? Thanks for that one, Russell)
I liked Donna a lot, too, and I appreciated that she didn't want to be with the Doctor, but man, did they ruin her exit. She didn't deserve that. And Amy was another case of "you've been around too long", because, though the part-time companion idea was good and fun, and a nice change of pace, it had gone on too long by series seven, so that when they finally did leave halfway through, it was more a sense of "well, that's that" for me. Always has to be tragic with the new series, doesn't it? Just let them live their lives for once. Have someone say "thanks but no thanks" like Martha more.
On another note, if Clara lasts this entire season and appears in every episode, she'll have been the companion for 36 episodes, which is a new series record, beating out Amy, who was around for 32. I think my counts are right - regular series episodes plus Christmas specials where a companion appeared, not counting random mini-episodes or anything like that. 36 episodes is a lot for the new series format, and it'll be nice to have someone new come around.
Last edited by gorast; 09-23-2015 at 11:57 AM.
House Always Wins
I'm convinced that Maisie Williams' character will be the new companion.
Administrator
Thoughts on tonight's episode?
House Always Wins
I enjoyed it more than the first. I hope the next story gets more to travels. Not that there's anything wrong with a sustained, prolonged two part episode in one locale but sometimes I anticipate the next episode. Strong start with this story though.
words.exe
I think the next episode is another two-parter, and the preview looks like it's a base-under-siege episode. Great. Love those.
(I hate them.)
This episode had some good moments and was more enjoyable than part one, but I'm not feeling it so far. I know that part of the point of Missy is that she's inconsistent with her allegiances, and she's always scheming to benefit herself as much as possible (and to kill as much as possible), but I was getting whiplash from her character these past two episodes. This half was much better about it, but I still think she needs to just sit on one side of the fence a little more. How long ago was it that she tried to use Cybermen to obliterate Earth? A week? Three? One of them was the god damn Brigadier, and they're still tolerating her general existence? Granted, the Doctor did leave her behind, but still.
I dunno. I'm not looking forward to this next two-parter, but hopefully it'll pick up more.
Administrator
Is anyone familiar with the Gallifreyan prophesy about the hybrid? First I'd heard of it last night.
Throbbing Member
That's Steven Moffat at his laziest- retconning in character motivations and history to fit a new backstory when he needs to propel the plot onwards for a couple more episodes. There was a reference to Missy's daughter here too (who'm I'm assuming will be Maisie Williams' character); I'm assuming this is why the Master and the Doctor have been best buddies all of a sudden. Given his penchant for exposition, telling these things instead of showing them, it's jarring.
The hybrid thing has been done before anyway (Daleks in Manhattan), as has Clara as a Dalek (Asylum of the Daleks).
Also, wait: had the Doctor not just left Davros to be killed on the mine-field, none of this would have happened? So teaching Davros the virtue of Mercy is what made the Daleks in the first place? For fuck sake?
Last edited by DF118; 09-27-2015 at 11:32 AM.
Administrator
The hybrid in Daleks in Manhattan was human though.
And yes, the ending made no sense to me either. Also, is it just me or was Missy's idea at the end so transparent?
Throbbing Member
So... the possible explanation for Davros being evil may have been avoided, but Davros still gets a silly retcon that contradicts his characterization?
It would work make more sense for Davros to forget Spoiler: about The Doctor saving him as a child well before the events of Genesis, but Moffat appeared to have yet again written himself into a corner.
You guys do realize that The Doctor and The Master being friends as children was always part of the latter's backstory. However... despite them almost always being friendly enemies, they were still unambiguously enemies. The Master even said in The Five Doctors: "A cosmos without The Doctor scarcely bears thinking about", but he still wanted to take pleasure in being the only one allowed to beat The Doctor, and even in that story none of the Doctors trusted him. This is Moffat downplaying Missy's evilness to make her a bit more like an evil(ish) River Song, despite going out of his way last time to not only have her try to conquer Earth with a personal cyberman army, but kill off Osgood to make a point that this Master is just as vile as ever. Here, she is never, not once, referred to as The Mistress (her new title as of the end of "Dark Water", revealed mostly to give us a good cliffhanger) let alone The Master. This plot would never work with Delgado, Ainley, or even Simm.
Also, Missy's explanation for hooking The Doctor and Clara up makes no sense. I would have preferred something along the lines of: "I caught onto her mystery before you did, Doctor, and I needed to keep you busy long enough for me to get my plan going".
On a lighter note, the preview for the next episode looks interesting. Good to see that Clara is wanting to function more as a proper companion (as opposed to whatever the hell she was in the second half of season 8), more interested in monsters than drama. And it's written by Toby Whithouse, the guy who wrote "The Vampires Of Venice" (Rory's first episode as a companion, and one of the better Smith-era episodes).
Administrator
Watching Revenge of the Cybermen, because why not, and the FX used on the Vogan is just laughable.
House Always Wins
she/her/hers
no, unless i'm super dense, because i have no idea what her idea was.
in general, i love missy (and the way she plays around with clara). i would watch "the adventures of missy & clara" any day, because they are great together, and missy is hilariously diabolical. she reminds me of a more flamboyant version of delgado's master, which is why i think she works so well.
Administrator
If Missy Spoiler: doesn't use the Daleks I'd be surprised.
Throbbing Member
An old, and quite brilliant, friend of mine writes an excellent takedown of each episode, framed as a stalker-ish letter to Steven Moffat, linked here. He's been doing this for years, and hits the nail on the head every time. I agree with almost all of his points. He's a massive fan.
Last edited by DF118; 09-29-2015 at 11:11 PM.
Active Member
I will be so happy if the story arc this season isn't about the fucking Daleks or the Cybermen. I get that they recur but NEWWW THINNNG COMEONNN. Also Michelle Gomez is incredible.
Administrator
Yeah, when you consider how many alien races the Doctor fought against in the classic series, New Who just seems lazy.
Also, look what we have here.
Throbbing Member
Of course. Giving the Daleks a concept of mercy may seem to make that part with River appear justified, but it still shows that Moffat is willing to make them contradict established characterization when he realized that making the machines suppress their vocabulary is just asking for a deus ex machina (not to mention that it comes off as making the Daleks appear sympathetic, even though they really shouldn't be). Spoiler: And it doesn't help that Clara wasn't thinking that she could find another way to get around not being able to say her name, and The Doctor didn't seem to notice anything off when The Mistress tried to pass her off as a faulty Dalek to trick him into killing Clara. Not to mention that there are some holes in Missy's reasoning: first, there have been a few occasions in which the Daleks were able to fire their guns without saying anything at all, and exactly two in which they gunned down The Doctor with no problem. Second, why the hell do the Cult Of Skaro Daleks have names if their machines prevent them from saying the names? Basically, Moffat has once again proven that he can't write Daleks.
I would like The Mistress better if something useful were to be done with a female Master. For example, I would have her plan to wipe out all life except for The Doctor so she and The Doctor could repopulate the universe with only time lords. By doing that, she would think she is doing The Doctor a favor by making them the first of the time lords now that he knows he's no longer the last. Instead they seem to be presenting her as a chaotic anti-heroine who kills some UNIT personnel to show she's not "turning good", but most of her villainy in TMA/TWF is (relatively) small-scale black comedy, while the events of "Death In Heaven" (besides casually mentioning Danny) are not mentioned at all, not even Kate Stewart reminding us that Missy murdered Kate's assistant last time in their one episode together since then.
Last edited by Patrick_Nicholas; 09-30-2015 at 11:47 AM.
House Always Wins
Playing devil's advocate but who said any of the name philandering and vocabulary changes weren't just Missy being clever with the programming, rather than everyone implying it is in every Dalek and always has been?
Administrator
she/her/hers
i really enjoyed the new episode. for a base under siege premise, it was much more interesting than the usual fare.
also, casting a deaf woman to play a deaf woman and having her be the most clever person in the situation made me very happy. really excited to see where the next episode takes us.
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