Indecision 2012

[Blackbookpress1984]

The one thing nobody in this campaign is talking about is the ugly reality of what really needs to happen to fix the USA.

Just like a business, when times are tough, cuts need to be made, portions of a company get sold off, people get laid off.

Lets either sell texas or just shut it down completely. I mean it's really not been performing lately anyways, and we need to save some cash. Maybe we can bring it back when things are better, but for now it's just dragging everyone else down.

Maybe we should look at a few other states too. One might not be enough, I wonder how much money could be saved if the USA was downsized by 25% of its states?

I think it's been a while since Utah has turned in a TPS report on time.

We can safely loose Texas, and therefore cut out a ton of illegal imigrants living of the money of others. We can also sell North Dakota to Canada (there's nothign thers anyways)

Thats two states we can do without.

[Deus Ex Machina]

The strangest part was where Eastwood placed the blame for the war in Afghanistan squarely on Obama's shoulders, and then said that Mitt wants us to "bring the troops home tomorrow."

What kind of strange madness is this? Someone says (at the RNC) that we need to bring our troops home NOW, and the statement is greeted with riotous, overwhelming applause... from Republicans?

This more than anything reveals how the Right have adopted textbook doublethink. Ask ANY self identified conservative and they will tell you that they never supported either war. Let them keep going and they'll tell you they never really liked Bush II and that he wasn't a real Conservative.

"You don't think I have the right to criticize the president for not closing Guantanamo?"

No. No you fucking don't, thank you very much.

[poinoup]

Eastwood sounded senile...seriously.

I'm reminded of the Simpsons..."Old Man Yells at Cloud".

Romney is getting desperate now...and yet you still can't count him out. American politics is weird like that.

[Pillfred]

We can safely loose Texas, and therefore cut out a ton of illegal imigrants living of the money of others. We can also sell North Dakota to Canada (there's nothign thers anyways)

Thats two states we can do without.

Oh, really? That and I happen to generally like living in Fargo.

I have yet to watch Eastwood's hopefully senile rant but it still breaks my heart.

This too may be old hat but the fat blowhard brings up a good point. Specifically the age demographic bit on Obama's supporters the first time around, it seems this same demographic are a lot of the naive people who thought he really was gonna change the world overnight, "Change we can believe in," kids. Fuck.

[Kid Charlemagne]

I love Austin and Houston, but let's face it: Texas has been trying to get itself fired from the US for some time now.

I take great offense to this. Granted we're a red state, but the biggest metropolitan areas in Texas all voted for Obama in 2008 and will likely do the same in November. All the small counties and cities are the ones that that are your typical "Proud to be American" types, but San Antonio, many parts of Dallas, Houston, Austin, and Corpus all tend to swing to the left, myself included. This whole notion and stereotype of everyone from Texas being a gun-toting, truck driving racist couldn't be further from the truth from where I stand. Don't let figures like Rick Perry give you the slightest idea of who we are. For every red blood there is here, you'll run into someone like myself who doesn't agree in part with anything the GOP sells. I'm not the proudest Texan and would move if I could, but I'm really fucking sick of people acting like one state represents a whole country, much less one group of people representing a state.

[redshoewearer]

For every red blood there is here, you'll run into someone like myself who doesn't agree in part with anything the GOP sells. I'm not the proudest Texan and would move if I could, but I'm really fucking sick of people acting like one state represents a whole country, much less one group of people representing a state.

Totally agree - my 5th generation Houstonian dad was a yellow dog Democrat, active in the arts scene in Houston, wrote for the local opera magazine, AND once he came out, participated in the gay pride Houston parade every year. Not all Texans (and I'm one too, though transplanted for many years) are Republicans and/or Conservatives.

[allegro]

Wow.... The differences between them are probably starker than they were since maybe 1932. Tax policy, social policy, foreign policy, judicial nominations, health care...

That's all a load of crap that they feed to the masses. Up until the time they're all bending over for the same big businesses and lobbyists.

DOMA? Signed into law by Clinton. Welfare reform? Clinton. Don't Ask Don't Tell? Clinton. Graham-Leach-Bliley? Clinton.

I voted straight Democratic ticket for many years. But now I'm voting Green Party.

[Deus Ex Machina]

That's all a load of crap that they feed to the masses. Up until the time they're all bending over for the same big businesses and lobbyists.

DOMA? Signed into law by Clinton. Welfare reform? Clinton. Don't Ask Don't Tell? Clinton. Graham-Leach-Bliley? Clinton.

DOMA - Signed after it passed the Republican controlled house and senate by a large margin.

Welfare Reform - Signed after he vetoed two even shittier versions of the law. Passed by Republican controlled house and senate

DADT - a compromise between full integration of homosexuals in the military (which Clinton ran on) and an outright fucking ban and policy of summary court martial of any and all gays in the military. Sorry, but holy crap is this a bad example for the argument you're making.

Graham-Leach-Bliley - named for it's three sponsors, Sen. Phil Gramm (R, Texas), Rep. Jim Leach (R, Iowa), and Rep. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. (R, Virginia), signed into law after it passed the Republican controlled house and senate.

Some Democrats are complicit in the shit policies of the past 15 years, some deliberately, most due to the shit compromises that were required during the whole Contract with America nonsense. Whether we like it or not, we live in a country that packed the legislature full of conservatives, so no, Clinton and the rest of the Democratic party did not and could not simply wave a magic wand and undo what had been done by a Republican majority.

Big business and Lobbyists want very much for people to believe that both parties are equally at fault; but examination of the details tells a pretty consistent story.

I voted straight Democratic ticket for many years. But now I'm voting Green Party.

You are fully capable of understanding the math behind presidential elections and are fully aware that you will be voting for Romney. Please don't do that.

[Jinsai]

You are fully capable of understanding the math behind presidential elections and are fully aware that you will be voting for Romney. Please don't do that.

To be fair she lives in a blue state that's going to go for Obama regardless. The election is going to be won by a handful of swing states... which is so fucked up, but what can you do about it.

I live in California, so I might as well write in "Louis CK"
I'll be voting for Obama, but I know my vote means nothing at all when I consider the math behind presidential elections.

[ambergris]

That's all a load of crap that they feed to the masses. Up until the time they're all bending over for the same big businesses and lobbyists.

DOMA? Signed into law by Clinton. Welfare reform? Clinton. Don't Ask Don't Tell? Clinton. Graham-Leach-Bliley? Clinton.

I voted straight Democratic ticket for many years. But now I'm voting Green Party.

I agree with a lot of what Deus Ex Machina said and to be fair to Clinton, he was president when movement conservatism was at the peak of its power. They really believed in the free-markets-solve-everything ideology that created Graham-Leach-Bliley and welfare reform. However, the big difference between the parties is that the Democrats learned their lessons after the Iraq War disaster and the Financial Crash. That`s why there is Dodd-Frank (which the republicans want to repeal) and a possible expiration of the Bush tax cuts. Also, the republicans, right now, are campaigning on complete lies about Obama`s execution of the welfare reform bill - because they decided to double-down.
Of course, in Illinois it doesn`t really matter who one votes for. But, for example, the 2010 Senate Race Mark Kirk vs. Alexi Giannoulias. They were only 1,4% apart in the end, so a vote for a green candidate could eventually lead to a republican senate majority in 2013 and that means more Scalias, Thomas' and vacancies on various posts.

[allegro]

I unapologetically voted for Mark Kirk. He'd been the US Rep in my district for many years and did a great job, particularly his work to help clean up Lake Michigan and his strong support of air traffic controllers.

http://campaignline.blogspot.com/200...rence.html?m=1

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=56922

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/sc...c/clinton.html

I'm not convinced that Democrats have learned any lessons at all.

Re Jill Stein, and the politics of fear:
http://thephoenix.com/boston/news/14...in-puff-piece/

[Deus Ex Machina]

I unapologetically voted for Mark Kirk. He'd been the US Rep in my district for many years and did a great job, particularly his work to help clean up Lake Michigan and his strong support of air traffic controllers.

http://campaignline.blogspot.com/200...rence.html?m=1

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=56922

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/sc...c/clinton.html

I'm not convinced that Democrats have learned any lessons at all.

Re Jill Stein, and the politics of fear:
http://thephoenix.com/boston/news/14...in-puff-piece/

Kirk huh? Take a look at his record and he's hit or miss, supporting Air Traffic controllers but ani-Union in general. He was also part of the debt ceiling debalce, did not vote for the ACA, pretty much a textbook Republican. You have to actually watch what these people do.



That's a great piece and completely right about how great Stein is. I'd like nothing more than to have her as president. But I don't get to pick the president and neither does any other one person. I see this election, and many more elections in the future, as opportunites to throw my support behind a candidate that, while not perfect, could possibly win and deliver policies that I can live with. One important thing to remember is that conservative voters don't suffer from this level of discrimination. They aren't really capable of splitting their vote because they aren't capable of knowing the difference between candidates. They vote for the Republican in front of them.

It's not a choice between Democrats and the Green party, it's a choice between Democrats and Republicans. Just like it's a choice between Ford and Toyota, and not a choice between Toyota and AwesomeHoverCarCo. If you're really committed to Stein's platform, which is fantastic, you should be focused on the long term goal of ending the reign of the those that designed and were the most complicit in the dismantling of our government. Only then will a platform like Stein's really have a chance.


Bleah, probably does not matter in your state like Jinsai said. But I've got a liberal father inlaw who's planning on voting for the Green party IN WISCONSIN. I want to strangle him.

[allegro]

But how the fuck is this shit two-party system EVER going to change if we don't have the BALLS to vote for whom we really WANT? Rather than voting based on fear of "the other guy." Or, in my husband's case, fear of Paul Ryan (whom he calls the antichrist)? How the fuck will things EVER change when we sit around saying, "Bah, things will never change. And if you vote for THAT person, you're gonna fuck things up even worse, so you'd better vote for whom EVERYBODY ELSE wants you to vote for or you're gonna FUCK THINGS UP." Nevermind about voting for the person YOU WANT; that's illogical, and you're not going with the plan, damn it!

I thought voting was a solemn and very private right, one that FEMALES couldn't exercise until relatively recently. I'll be fucking damned if anybody tells me how to vote. I vote based on my own criteria, and not any god damned political party.

Re "watching what Mark Kirk" does or did. Um, yeah, I know that. I'm not an idiot. But I don't vote party lines, anymore. Giannoulias was and is a fucking asshole. Mark Kirk did so much for NATCA, they sent him PAC money. http://www.time.com/time/politics/ar...035561,00.html

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Ma...-Kirks-Stroke/

What we REALLY need is a full-blown revolution. If it takes that to dismantle this stupid system, then so be it.

Right now, however, we're looking to retire in France.

[Deus Ex Machina]

But how the fuck is this shit two-party system EVER going to change if we don't have the BALLS to vote for whom we really WANT? Rather than voting based on fear of "the other guy." Or, in my husband's case, fear of Paul Ryan (whom he calls the antichrist)? How the fuck will things EVER change when we sit around saying, "Bah, things will never change. And if you vote for THAT person, you're gonna fuck things up even worse, so you'd better vote for whom EVERYBODY ELSE wants you to vote for or you're gonna FUCK THINGS UP." Nevermind about voting for the person YOU WANT; that's illogical, and you're not going with the plan, damn it!

I thought voting was a solemn and very private right, one that FEMALES couldn't exercise until relatively recently. I'll be fucking damned if anybody tells me how to vote. I vote based on my own criteria, and not any god damned political party.

Well, fending off what you know with break the system is still a change. We have to do that consistently before we have any hope of real progressivism. I'm not voting out of 'fear of the other guy' I'm putting my support behind a candidate that can win and who's policies do more good than the other, and protect against policies I don't care for to the degree possible. That's perfectly fine because it still counts even if you don't get everything you want. National elections are big, messy things. You're not choosing a pizza topping with your friends. There are thousands of little variables and reasons to support this or that candidate but you still need X amount of electoral votes. By the time you reach the end of the candidate selection process, their platform will be watered down because it HAS to be. They have to cater to a certain amount of people, period. There's no grand conspiracy holding together the two party system. It's math. They need 50% of the vote. So you shore up your base when you drop below that number, and stop compromising once you get past it. You could fracture the system tomorrow into 5 parties and in 6 months, there would be two again.

No one is telling you how to vote. I'm just telling you the likely consequences of your vote.

[allegro]

No one is telling you how to vote. I'm just telling you the likely consequences of your vote.

Gee, thanks. Did you read the article (above) about Clarence Thomas? See how many Dems voted him in? That worked out great, didn't it? But the hypocrite coward Democrats forgot that they helped get that asshole on the bench.

http://www.celsias.com/article/ex-mo...ar-major-mons/

Where was the outrage? Oh, wait, I know; we had an election to worry about (like we always do), not the right time.

Meanwhile, http://current.com/shows/the-war-roo...-for-president

That really dumb guy, Noam Chomky, said: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/201...0/18709079.php

A certain former ETS regular in Virginia is voting for Jill Stein. (<--- oh, and said former ETS regular's senior citizen dad and his senior citizen girlfriend in FLORIDA, both Republicans, are voting for Stein, too)

[Elke]

I'm having flashbacks to this exact same argument four years ago. I think it was about Ron Paul back then, no?

I don't understand the two-party system. It's the biggest bullshit there is: how do you discern a left-wing Republican and a conservative Democrate?

[Deus Ex Machina]

Gee, thanks. Did you read the article (above) about Clarence Thomas? See how many Dems voted him in? That worked out great, didn't it? But the hypocrite coward Democrats forgot that they helped get that asshole on the bench.

http://www.celsias.com/article/ex-mo...ar-major-mons/

Where was the outrage? Oh, wait, I know; we had an election to worry about (like we always do), not the right time.

The outrage was everywhere. The Anita Hill scandal, for one. That and Clarence Thomas was voted into the Supreme Court by one of the narrowest margins in history. 11 Democrats voted yes, 46 voted no. This is as unpersuasive as your DADT example. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were serving up examples of just how hollow the 'they're all crooks' line really is to get people to vote the straight D ticket come November.

Meanwhile, http://current.com/shows/the-war-roo...-for-president

That really dumb guy, Noam Chomky, said: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/201...0/18709079.php

Stein would make an excellent President. Because I would like her, or someone like her to be the president some day, I'm going to vote for the party that tried and failed to block Clarence Thomas' appointment to the supreme court. I'd vote for Stein, but due to her lack of support, I would be indirectly aiding the party that selected and appointed him.

A certain former ETS regular in Virginia is voting for Jill Stein. (<--- oh, and said former ETS regular's senior citizen dad and his senior citizen girlfriend in FLORIDA, both Republicans, are voting for Stein, too)

All votes for Romney, by default.

Edit: Elke: The US has many many parties, but only two end up getting elected due to the nature of our democracy. You need 50+% of the vote to get legislation enacted. Smaller parties would just end up allying with the larger. Any party that can't get around 50% will try to absorb more members, any party that can get 50+ has no incentive to reach across the isle. It's a lot less nefarious than it's made out to be. The liberal Rebublican is a figment of the American imagination, and the Conservative Democrat is just a regular democrat trying to survive in a hyper conservative culture. That or just a conservative taking advantage of the D to get elected. I suppose theres the whole dixie-crat holdover phenomenon.

[Magtig]

I take great offense to this. Granted we're a red state, but the biggest metropolitan areas in Texas all voted for Obama in 2008 and will likely do the same in November. All the small counties and cities are the ones that that are your typical "Proud to be American" types, but San Antonio, many parts of Dallas, Houston, Austin, and Corpus all tend to swing to the left, myself included. This whole notion and stereotype of everyone from Texas being a gun-toting, truck driving racist couldn't be further from the truth from where I stand. Don't let figures like Rick Perry give you the slightest idea of who we are. For every red blood there is here, you'll run into someone like myself who doesn't agree in part with anything the GOP sells. I'm not the proudest Texan and would move if I could, but I'm really fucking sick of people acting like one state represents a whole country, much less one group of people representing a state.

I'm pretty sure I said all of nothing about all the stereo-types you just mentioned, but Rick Perry, considering he was democratically elected, DOES give a person an idea of the mindset of many of the people in Texas. And the joke I was making about secession is hardly an anomaly; I've heard that kind of talk coming out of Texan leaders for years. You can be offended all you want, but Texas has such a fucking horrible track record of doing things that are shitty -often for this entire country when you consider they dictate the content of high school text books- that it should come as little surprise when people pick on it. For fuck sake, they were just trying to ban critical thinking courses! Who the fuck does that!?

It's a shame, actually. I really do like Texas, and I feel for you, redshoewearer, and other forward thinking people having to put up with leaders that keep doing incredibly stupid shit, but Texas keeps electing people like George Bush and Rick Perry. If you don't like that stereotype maybe you ought to run for office or volunteer for a campaign.

[PooPooMeowChow]

Funny seeing them try to conduct a convention with out using the other candidates name.

[allegro]

^^ That is amazing and more people need to see that bullshit.

We need a revolution.

But, Americans are pretty stupid and lazy. And the MEAN spirited people right now, wow, they're everywhere. I mean, I have seen some of the meanest, most awful things said about Obama online that goes WAY beyond general politics. It's different than just "I hate Democrats" or "I hate Republicans" -- it's a personal attack on the President's character that is so vicious and based on lies. "Go back to Africa where you were born" and "BBQ Obama" wtf.

I am so disgusted with both Democrats and Republicans right now, I've decided to stay as far away from this election stuff as possible. It's all anxiety-inducing and I know that I can't do a damned thing about it, so I'm going to ignore it as much as I can. I'm just not on board with any of it, not even the Green party, honestly. I'm exhausted. I can't totally get behind any of it. I'm gonna go do my yoga.

[allegro]

I'm having flashbacks to this exact same argument four years ago. I think it was about Ron Paul back then, no?

I don't understand the two-party system. It's the biggest bullshit there is: how do you discern a left-wing Republican and a conservative Democrate?

Doesn't matter; they all eventually evolve into people who aren't very good people.

[Kid Charlemagne]

I'm pretty sure I said all of nothing about all the stereo-types you just mentioned, but Rick Perry, considering he was democratically elected, DOES give a person an idea of the mindset of many of the people in Texas. And the joke I was making about secession is hardly an anomaly; I've heard that kind of talk coming out of Texan leaders for years. You can be offended all you want, but Texas has such a fucking horrible track record of doing things that are shitty -often for this entire country when you consider they dictate the content of high school text books- that it should come as little surprise when people pick on it. For fuck sake, they were just trying to ban critical thinking courses! Who the fuck does that!?

It's a shame, actually. I really do like Texas, and I feel for you, redshoewearer, and other forward thinking people having to put up with leaders that keep doing incredibly stupid shit, but Texas keeps electing people like George Bush and Rick Perry. If you don't like that stereotype maybe you ought to run for office or volunteer for a campaign.

I volunteered to work for the Democratic party in 2008 and 2010, and hope to do it again this year. Like I said, the leaders don't speak for everyone. I could easily say that you being in California, you and everyone else in that state are probably as dense and moronic as Gov. Conan the Barbarian, but I know that's not true, because I know you and everyone that I've hung out from California isn't gay, money spending, laid back, surfer, conservative or anything. Just as not everyone from Utah is a Mormon or everyone from Arizona is a racist. I just think it's unfair for you to pick on it and try to justify it because I know you're better than that. Every state has its set of problems, some more than others, but I won't hold it against anyone or said state. And as for someone like Rick Perry, you wouldn't believe the amount of people (Republican and Democrat) that distanced themselves from him in the past year. Obviously he didn't catch on with the rest of the country because he burned out pretty quickly within his own party.

[M1ke]

The two-party system (while flawed) isn't the worst thing in the world. In Canada we don't have a 2-party system and it produces some pretty messed up results here too.

For example, in our last federal election the majority of citizens voted for left-wing parties, but the results led to a majority government for a right-wing party. We have multiple left-wing parties, but the right is united in just 1. So the left-wing votes end up split and a party that received only 39% of the popular vote ended up winning the election with a majority government.

[allegro]

Really? Wow, that's kinda fucked up. What's more fucked up is how little I know about Canadian elections.

[M1ke]

Well, a very broad strokes summary goes kind of like this:

Each riding elects 1 person to the House of Commons, with 308 ridings across the country. One way to win is with votes going something like this:
40% Conservative (right-wing)
30% Liberal (left-wing)
30% NDP (further left-wing)

And then that riding gets represented by a right-wing party even though it's made up of 60% left-wing voters.

Not saying that this isn't better than the 2-party system, just that it has its own flaws too.

[Elke]

We have similar problems in Belgium, which explains breaking the Iraqi formation record.

[Jinsai]

oooooo... if you vote for Obama, you'll be sending the world into a thousand years of darkness! see? This is why that "Chuck Norris facts" meme was fucking stupid. Derpy derp derp, when Chuck Norris does a pushup, he's not pushing himself up, he's derpy derp derp derp. Yeah, so fucking funny.

[allegro]

How can we take him seriously when he's wearing that shirt tucked in like that?

Our country could go the way of socialism ... or SOMETHING MUCH WORSE.

If people keep invoking that asshole RONALD REAGAN (a/k/a the Antichrist), I'm gonna go postal.

[aggroculture]

So the GOP's electoral theme is former action hero movie stars? OK good luck with that.

[Sallos]

Speaking about third parties, how's Gary Johnson doing? Will he be eligible for debates?