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Thread: General Police Misconduct aka Murdering Black People

  1. #1201
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    The thing is white people can fuck up, and do stupid shit, and commit crimes and do drugs WITHOUT tarnishing the perception of their entire race. This is one of the fundamental and basic truths about racism and how bigotry is constructed. Being guilty by association based on nothing but your race, is heinous and unjust. It's a fucking disgrace, to suggest people have no reason to be angry with people who profile them and treat them unfairly.

    The point he is making is literally that "it is fair because someone who looked kind of like you fucked up"
    That is practically the very definition of racism!

    BULLSHIT.

    What about the responsibility of the person doing the judging and doing the perceiving? You can't have it both ways. If this is about personal responsibility then you should be holding racists accountable for profiling and prejudice.

    When It Comes To Illegal Drug Use, White America Does The Crime, Black America Gets The Time

    Anyone else wanna take on this trash?
    Last edited by littlemonkey613; 12-06-2014 at 02:35 AM.

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    The entire white race is pretty tarnished to the black community due to all the shit that's been going down like eric garner, rodney king, mlk, mike brown, trayvon martin, slavery, etc etc etc. I didn't mean to get sucked into this rabbit hole, I don't even know what we're even debating on to be honest, white people are victims of pretty much nothing. I didn't mean to start a black VS white debate, there is no debating when it comes to racial injustice.

  3. #1203
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    Lets get the puppy back on target.

    Apparent video proof of chicago police using a stingray to listen to protesters cell phone calls during a protest:

    https://privacysos.org/node/1609#update

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    Everytime I see protesters getting tear gased and pepper sprayed I'm like BRING A GAS MASK! Is there some reason I'm missing about why this is not done? It feels like if you're going to demonstrate like this you should come prepared to defend yourself in some way, right? Because you're going up against ruthless violent lawless criminals, so...

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    Sorry to be peppering the thread tonight, i'm bowing out for a bit after this.

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    Someone pull up statistics on stop and frisk, please.

    edit: NYPD policy, specifically.

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    For the record, I was in no way trying to argue that the enforcement of law doesn't disproportionately impact blacks.... because it DOES. I was only stating that the police misconduct is something that impacts everyone and therefore it shouldn't be distilled down to a topic about race.

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    Separately, Eric Garner's daughter was on CNN saying that she really doubts Garner's death had anything to do with race:
    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/eric-garn...d-white-issue/

    but look how much that anchor really wanted her to say it was a race issue. That's something the media fucking LOVES to push. It's what gets people pissed off.
    Last edited by DigitalChaos; 12-06-2014 at 12:53 PM.

  10. #1210
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    Someone pull up statistics on stop and frisk, please.
    Happened to my brother at least a dozen times when he was in his 20s. I was with him in the car twice and got cuffed the second time for "being mouthy."

  11. #1211
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Separately, Eric Garner's daughter was on CNN saying that she really doubts Garner's death had anything to do with race:
    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/eric-garn...d-white-issue/

    but look how much that anchor really wanted her to say it was a race issue. That's something the media fucking LOVES to push. It's what gets people pissed off.
    Ugh, Don Lemon, really?

  12. #1212
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    Ugh, Don Lemon, really?
    He's a piece of work, but represents quite a lot about the fucked up media. Either way, his presence doesn't change what Garner's daughter said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony.parente View Post
    If you take into account crime by race that would make sense.
    Actually it doesn't, at least not according to the FBI's stats on crime arrests. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...decoverviewpdf

    For murder rates, whites and blacks are neck and neck, and blacks do commit robbery at a higher rate. But in literally every other category, whites commit exponentially more crime than blacks. Whites commit drug crimes at more than double the rate of blacks, and the same goes for rape, burglary, car theft, vice, etc. Given that whites commit and are arrested for crimes much more often than blacks, it makes zero sense that blacks are 21 times more likely to be shot by a cop during an arrest.

    Except actually it DOES make perfect sense, provided you can get over this irrational denial about the racism of American police.

  14. #1214
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    Tony - There is some very clear data showing that the application of law is not done equally: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.or...ity-sentencing

    This is the case in many thing: drug laws, gun control, etc. It's actually something that supporters of those laws will avoid addressing. It wasn't long ago that the same people complaining about the disproportionate application of law to PoC were pushing for more laws that would make the situation worse.



    Yes, depending on how you look at it, blacks can be disproportionately responsible for some types of crime (in sometimes it is the reverse), but this doesn't come close to accounting for the imbalance in how the law is applied. And you are right that these issues are much more related to class than it is race. There are instances where police testified on record that targets for things like drug raids are focused on lower class homes because they have a harder time bringing things to court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wretchedest View Post
    Everytime I see protesters getting tear gased and pepper sprayed I'm like BRING A GAS MASK! Is there some reason I'm missing about why this is not done? It feels like if you're going to demonstrate like this you should come prepared to defend yourself in some way, right? Because you're going up against ruthless violent lawless criminals, so...
    I feel like the image of gas masks has associations with like anarchy and violence and would just give the police more "justification" to be violent. Stupid but I could see it.

  16. #1216
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    Someone pull up statistics on stop and frisk, please.

    edit: NYPD policy, specifically.
    Will this work?
    http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data

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    http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/politi...rs-fact-check/

    A good article on the oft touted 21 times more likely stat. Not the first time or the last that someones agenda has played a role in their "statistics".

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlemonkey613 View Post
    It does go beyond race but it also undeniably about race in much of its core. Nobody wants it to be about race seeing as most people don't enjoy enduring racism...
    Racism is very much alive and well. I'm not one of those people who denies the existence of racism...there seem to be a lot of those types of people these days. There are racists in every race, and it REALLY sucks. I do think, however, that children of my generation (i'm 34) were on the right track. i don't know if the younger generation continued the trend, but i hope so. as i child, i had playmates who were asian, black, mexican, polish, indian, persian...everybody chilled. as a young man, i dated women of many different skin tones and ethnicities.
    i do see how race plays a part in these issues, but at the same time, the main thing i see is a cop shooting an unarmed man...not a white cop shooting a black man, you know?


    I am happy to see protesters of all colors joining together.
    I really get the feeling that people flat out are NOT going to put up with this shit much longer.

    About 8 years ago in Dallas there was a string of police shootings of unarmed folk, and i don't think the cases were making the national news. I was fucking enraged.

    But now, i doubt a single one of these cases is going to slide by without large scale, well organized demonstrations.

    A few weeks ago, i listed like 10 fucked up things crooked cops had done to me over the years.

    I just remembered another...i was in a bad wreck, and the cops made us sign papers that said they took us to the hospital, threatening to "fuck us up" if we didn't sign. They didn't fucking take us to the hospital of course.
    This kind of shit is what makes me so prejudiced against cops.

    But i can feel it, y'all...things are gonna change. People have had enough.

    edit: when i saw the news of the protests of the past couple of days, i was reminded of this...
    Last edited by elevenism; 12-07-2014 at 05:07 AM.

  19. #1219
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    Dude, the "generations" that stopped accepting racism as the American norm began in the 60s, the children of Dr Martin Luther King, Jr ("I have a Dream"), they were the black and white people DYING in marches to stop racism, to protest segregation, to force integration on schools in the south, etc. So of course, each generation after would hopefully become less racist but obviously that's not true. All you have to do is look at stats re the ghettoization of blacks in Chicago, the number of dead children from gang guns and drugs with nothing being done, it's an incidious racism, one where the police force dollars don't go toward those areas or children, because they're not worth it as much as the richer white areas paying more property tax. "Let them all kill each other off and our problem will be solved" is still a form of racism, never mind which child is playing together. Black children and white children don't play together in peace and love and harmony when there's segregation and ghettoization. The white people are driving up the Heroin Highway from the suburbs to buy drugs in Englewood in Chicago from gangs and if some little black kid gets shot in the head by accident, oh well.

    I was a child in Inkster, an integrated suburb of Detroit, in the 60s, and my mom tells me I didn't know the difference between black and white. My babysitter was black, half my schoolmates were black, but I had no idea, my mom said I just thought their skin was prettier than mine. Children aren't racist. They learn it, later.
    Last edited by allegro; 12-07-2014 at 11:18 AM.

  20. #1220
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    All you have to do is look at stats re the ghettoization of blacks in Chicago, the number of dead children from gang guns and drugs with nothing being done, it's an incidious racism, one where the police force dollars don't go toward those areas or children, because they're not worth it as much as the richer white areas paying more property tax.

    That'd be classism, not racism. It's an important distinction to make when you are trying to fix the underlying cause. Lumping it all into racism is easy, but not accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    That'd be classism, not racism. It's an important distinction to make when you are trying to fix the underlying cause. Lumping it all into racism is easy, but not accurate.
    No, it's racism because of ghettoization. The financial disparities are because of race. The housing projects housed no white people. Chicago is still one of the most segregated cities in the country. Property tax is based on assessed property value. Chicago has one of the highest levels of property taxes in the country. The areas with higher levels of property tax income (not ghetto) get better public schools, more police, better city services. The Chicago areas with the highest crime also have the worst schools, are "food deserts," have the worst city services, and also happen to have the highest level of minority residents. There really are no "poor white ghettos" in Chicago.

    "Fixing the underlying cause" means pouring a LOT more money into fixing / stopping the drug trade and the white suburban people from coming into the city to buy drugs. It means not spending MILLIONS on trying to get the fucking Olympics in Chicago (FAIL) and spending it on gang task forces instead, and hiring HUNDREDS more beat cops for that area. Looking away and spending money on the fucking George Lucas Museum don't fucking help. Improving crime, improving city services, DESEGREGATION will help a LOT.

    They're CLOSING SCHOOLS in these neighborhoods. Some of these little kids have to take CTA buses really far from their homes, through gang territory.
    Last edited by allegro; 12-07-2014 at 01:09 PM.

  22. #1222
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    Sure, racism is how ghettoization first started, but it's the trap of poverty that keeps it that way. It's about money now. Black people in rich neighborhoods are going to be treated like they are rich by the police. The police target the poor areas because of the lack of legal backlash. It gets really fucked up when you consider how many felons (aka people without voting rights) they are creating in the communities where voting is their one remaining power over their government.

  23. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Sure, racism is how ghettoization first started, but it's the trap of poverty that keeps it that way. It's about money now. Black people in rich neighborhoods are going to be treated like they are rich by the police.
    We don't have much of that in Chicago. Here, read this.

    But perhaps the greatest evil of racial segregation is how it concentrates the poverty of blacks, as Massey and others have shown. Because of historical—and some continuing—discrimination, blacks are more likely to be poor. When this is combined with segregation, it means blacks are far more likely than any other group to live in concentrated poverty. It's hard to be poor; it's much harder to be poor and surrounded by poverty and all the harmful cultural norms and behavior, such as crime, that accompany it. It's a kind of poverty whites rarely experience, and one tough to escape.

    When Harvard sociologist Robert Sampson studied Chicago residents in the most disadvantaged quartile of the city's census tracts a few years ago, he found that no white families, and only a few Hispanic families, were represented. "Residents in not one white community experience what is most typical for those residing in segregated black areas," Sampson wrote in 2009, in the Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science. "Trying to estimate the effect of concentrated disadvantage on whites is thus tantamount to estimating a phantom reality."

    Sampson has been studying poverty in Chicago for much of the last two decades. He's found that in Chicago, poverty, like segregation, persists: neighborhoods that were poor and black in 1970 were generally poor and black in 2000. (From 1970 to 2000, not a single Chicago neighborhood changed from black to white.) The neighborhoods of concentrated poverty are also high in cynicism and distrust, he's written. In a longitudinal study, Sampson focused on the verbal ability of children growing up in Chicago's poor black neighborhoods and found "detrimental and long-lasting consequences for black children's cognitive ability rivaling in magnitude the effects of missing one year of schooling." Verbal ability, he noted, is a "major predictor of life outcomes."

    These kinds of deep, neighborhood-based problems, linked inextricably in Chicago to racial segregation, are why desegregation advocates continue to maintain that segregation itself needs to be confronted.

    Ghettoization started with Jews. It was about keeping them all "contained." It's still about containment and segregation.

    Also, I got news for you: Wealthy black people in the North Shore still get pulled over the cops. DWB: Driving While Black. A few North Shore cities tried to pass ordinances preventing you from hanging anything from your rearview mirror until everybody realized that it was just a cheap way to pull over Latinos since they often have the Virgin Mary or Rosaries hanging from their rear view mirrors.
    Last edited by allegro; 12-07-2014 at 03:43 PM.

  24. #1224
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    That's true. I was thinking of stuff like drug raids where the owner's neighborhood is defined.

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    I think it's useful to acknowledge the distinction between classism and racism, but people are wrong if they think that racism is basically "over" and now all America has to deal with is classism and poverty. Classism and racism feed into one another in a sort of mutual, cyclical relationship. This has always been the case, going all the way back to the slave trade. It could reasonably be argued that slavery was first and foremost an economic enterprise, and that's true, but nevertheless, racism was the engine that made the whole thing possible. Racism is the "logic" that makes it seem acceptable to those who stand to benefit from it. In any capitalist economy, there is an inherent need for an underclass (and only the most delusional free market apologists will claim otherwise), and racism is a convenient and effective means of creating such a class of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantra View Post
    I think it's useful to acknowledge the distinction between classism and racism, but people are wrong if they think that racism is basically "over" and now all America has to deal with is classism and poverty. Classism and racism feed into one another in a sort of mutual, cyclical relationship. This has always been the case, going all the way back to the slave trade. It could reasonably be argued that slavery was first and foremost an economic enterprise, and that's true, but nevertheless, racism was the engine that made the whole thing possible. Racism is the "logic" that makes it seem acceptable to those who stand to benefit from it. In any capitalist economy, there is an inherent need for an underclass (and only the most delusional free market apologists will claim otherwise), and racism is a convenient and effective means of creating such a class of people.
    That's so true.

    I think this is a really good article that speaks to that. Especially the segment about the damage caused by the subprime mortgage meltdown.

    Predatory racist lending patterns literally stripped future generations of black Americans of inherited wealth. The combination of privilege and bias resulted in a disaster for African Americans, who are now locked in an economic bind that produces the need for more and more debt. But, in the end, the rapid depreciation of housing nationally due to predatory equity theft tactics impacted white Americans in far greater numbers. If it were not for a commitment to colorblindness, the debt practices that fueled the 2008 financial crisis could never have taken hold. Legal remedies could have been sought that prevented and restored stolen equity, and banks would simply not have been able to expand their practices. Colorblind ideologies naturalized racial inequality, allowed the process of predatory lending to be understood as class based, and made it acceptable to turn a blind eye to the economic attack on communities of color, while neoliberalism’s debt economy prospered.
    Last edited by allegro; 12-07-2014 at 03:35 PM.

  27. #1227
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    I think this is a really good article that speaks to that. Especially the segment about the damage caused by the subprime mortgage meltdown.
    Debt is absolutely a substitution for slavery. Hell, most of the people who's family was some of the first to come to this country got here by being indentured servants. It's just voluntary slavery. How voluntary is it when it's your only real option though? Especially when everyone around you is doing it and driving up the market.

    Among many things, this is very apparent in college costs, as the article points out. I'm actually hopeful that THIS is going to be what causes things to change by breaking the cycle. The impacts to the economy or only just starting to break through. Millennials have attached themselves to insane debt and are just now starting to have kids and buy houses. What happens when THEIR kids hit college age? Birth rates are dropping, percent of renters is climbing, etc. There are various pockets around the country where it is accelerating more than others.

    There are many ways for this to collapse. We are at the point where the financial edge of certain types of education don't add up to their cost. My hope is that people start rejecting this "edge" that is nothing but a net financial negative. I'm hoping the internet has a massive hand in crushing the college machine to the realm of very specific jobs that absolutely need it.

    It's just one part of the debt machine, but at least this one plays a role in preventing upward economic movement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Debt is absolutely a substitution for slavery. Hell, most of the people who's family was some of the first to come to this country got here by being indentured servants. It's just voluntary slavery. How voluntary is it when it's your only real option though? Especially when everyone around you is doing it and driving up the market.

    Among many things, this is very apparent in college costs, as the article points out. I'm actually hopeful that THIS is going to be what causes things to change by breaking the cycle. The impacts to the economy or only just starting to break through. Millennials have attached themselves to insane debt and are just now starting to have kids and buy houses. What happens when THEIR kids hit college age? Birth rates are dropping, percent of renters is climbing, etc. There are various pockets around the country where it is accelerating more than others.

    There are many ways for this to collapse. We are at the point where the financial edge of certain types of education don't add up to their cost. My hope is that people start rejecting this "edge" that is nothing but a net financial negative. I'm hoping the internet has a massive hand in crushing the college machine to the realm of very specific jobs that absolutely need it.

    It's just one part of the debt machine, but at least this one plays a role in preventing upward economic movement.

    Well, and there's other kinds of debt that middle and upper class whites don't know about or don't understand that are really common in minority neighborhoods, like these car title loans or paycheck loans with crazy interest rates.

    In Chicago, there's a big push to increase the minimum wage to $15 per hour, especially for fast food workers. There are people with degrees making less than $15 per hour. But there are minorites who are making careers out of the fast food industry because they see no other way out, they see no other career. Fast food and big box stores are now expected to provide a "living wage." Minimum wage is all these employees ever hope to make.

    College? Please. For a while, the biggest minority scam was beauty school; enroll in some big beauty school, sign up for some huge student loan with the dream of owning your own beauty salon someday. I had a client who owned a huge beauty school in a south suburb. The problem, he said, is that the vast majority of students drop out within the first year, but they're stuck with these huge loans. And even if you graduate, good luck finding a job let alone ever owning your own salon. And you can't get out of that debt. And the interest rates are robbery. Not even a bankruptcy can get rid of that debt.

    The Federal government provided some assistance for some of these beauty schools, but it stopped when the schools stopped providing adequate data about graduation and employment. It's a total scam, and the schools advertise on TV promising some hope for a better life, own your own business, etc. It's predatory, with minorities being the biggest prey.

    The next biggest scam are these shitty non-accredited colleges with programs in "criminal justice." They promise that you'll get a job like on TV doing "C.S.I." shit. Yeah, right. You'll end up with no job and a GIANT loan with HUGE interest rates and some shitty associates degree that's worthless. So what next? "Would you like to supersize your fries?"

    Here, SEE THIS. See also Top 10 things you don't know about Sallie Mae. (Sallie Mae is used by families with bad credit or insufficient credit or income or when you go to a school that isn't qualified to received FAFSA funds, like when you go to a shitty high school and can't get into a good college. It's also used when you go to Grad school.)

    Why do you think the drug trade is so popular? Why go work at Mickey D's for $8.50 per hour when you can make $500 per day selling drugs? DUH.
    Last edited by allegro; 12-07-2014 at 05:32 PM.

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    @allegro - totally agree, but many of those scammy business models rely on customers who are *really* bad with their finances. A lot of the friends I had where I grew up never figured this stuff out and when you would try to explain to them how you could "game the system" (that's what it seemed like at the time) they refused as if it were purely a lack of self control or even just the logic of it didn't click.

    This article will resonate with everyone who grew up without money, but see #4 and #1 for examples of what I am getting at:
    http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-st...owing-up-poor/

    Public schooling should seriously have some basic "how to save money" teaching. It's unlikely with the fucked up economic models our government is running: spending=good, saving=bad, debt=good!

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