she/her/hers
i don't normally care, but can i ask if you're a man or a woman? because i have a ton of friends in australia who are women and they, too, experience this kind of thing. it's not a regional problem. there are women in the middle east who are literally BURNED ALIVE when they reject marriage proposals, so at least it's not quite that bad here in the US, but it's still pretty fucking awful.Originally Posted by Madmya
Alt-Left Leaning Cunt
PS - This Brock shit is fucking infuriating.
Dis-member
Sounds like a case of "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree". Quite the family they got going on there.
God is an American
I'd like to agree with you but it's clear that bad parenting is far from the only thing at work here.
Banned
I'd rather not say because it may change depending on the day. Vocal minority.
Active Member
There is definitely a reason for the portrayal of us, men being the psychopatic crazy people who can't handle rejection, but to be fair, that is the result of culture in its entirety and has (almost) nothing to do with the other gender, hell, quite the opposite. Men, by and large are more proud, it's how we are raised. We are being thrown into competition early on, and if you think about it, it's almost always boys who want to race, who wants to win the King Of The Hill. If you don't participate, it is heavily implied that you lose from your masculinity, and you can't do that. You are the men, you must protect the girls, that's your job, you have to find a solution all the time, blah-blah. Bottom line is, you rarely see men being so open about their emotions, than women, as it is considered a weak trait. I've talked about this with a girl before, and we both concluded that you have to be more considerate with a men's heart, because we handle emotions differently. I suppose you saw girls crying after they got rejected or broken up with, and then her friends cheered her up "aaaawww hun!!". It's considered pretty normal, especially if you are loosened by some booze. Now, you probably did not see many guys do the same. Would and should it be normal and healthy? Of course, I don't think it's a big deal if you cry for a few mins then move on, completely understandable.
But instead, we keep it on the inside, bring it home, then explode. Because you can play the macho man all you want, everyone has a breaking point, and when it comes to love, it does not even matter how intelligent, healthy, etc. you are, it overwrites every rule - which, in a way, I find beautiful. Now, how you react after you exploded... there are outcomes when you leash out on her, just to patch up your own ego, because if you dirt her, then suddenly you did not even fail, hell, you doded a bullet, damn, it sounds so much better, right! She's surely a whore, of course. Probably tortures bunnies too, 120% sure about that.
It's unfair to generalize though, it's not like every explosion is the same, and there is a rulebook, where at the end the man will call the woman all kinds of slurs. But we are not equal, so if you plan to approach (or distance from) someone romantically, you should say if you are talking about a woman or a man. At least it's quite helpful to know, when expecting advice.
Aside from this, it's really don't have a culture here either. Yes, as tony.parente said, there are people (=men, women, children) who are total assholes and get their fun from behaving like animals, but that's entirely different, and society usually rejects them. Sure, America is a weird place, so if they say this is how it is there, I won't deny it, but if you are a girl, you can safely club here, safely go clubbing and safely tell a guy no. If he tries to make a scene, he'll get beaten up.
Also, there are a disgusting amount (and I mean it in a good way!) of girls here, whom you don't want to mess with.They have quite the spirit, and good luck to you if you try to be a jerk to their more laid back and quiet type girl friend. If you ask me, they cross the line with their overzealousness more often, than a guy leashes out on a girl for a simple rejection. Man, I like arguments, but when they go off, even I nope the hell out of there.
Alt-Left Leaning Cunt
Bro... Wut
Active Member
Hey, I was definitely going somewhere with that train of thought. Let it sink, I might've struck gold, it's just way above what our simple, human little brains could even comprehend. I mean, I actually understand some of the stuff I wrote, and I have a good guess about some of the other stuff.
Just.... let it sink, everyone. Give it time.
Re Member
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/06/06/...nother-father/
this was a very real, very welcome read.
Re Member
volby, i like a lot of what you said, but am still chewing it over.
i just wanted to say this, though: the fiesty ones in here are simply tired of trying to have their perspective seen and understood. actually, i am betting *you* get that frustration, as you seem to also hit walls when trying to be heard...so, yeah, best bet is to moon walk the fuck off to the side and wait until some dust settles and try again, calmer. lol.
personally, i have had to sit on my hands and bite my tongue for up to a week to ensure i don't end up psychotically spewing vitriol instead of trying to get my point across.
Re Member
@Madmya just to add something: the rejection reaction i spoke of (ugly bitch, lucky i talked to you), is a common one experienced by friends and family. the most common reaction i received (pre and post marriage) to rejecting someone was a) fuck you, bitch <at the worst> and b) variations on "oh, too good for me, huh?" <the most common>.
i was also told i was a "fucking whore, with the morals of a piece of wood." and then "douchebag", by a dude who i had a one night stand with. so i did accept him, at first. i also clearly explained that i was "a good time charlie, with only one night on offer". i made this very very clear. and the next day when i politely said no thanks to a date, to a meal, or to another sexual bout, he flipped out. since we frequented the same club, at that time, he also shadowed me the next few times at the club, spewing insults at me. (yeah, that surely made me want to change my mind about him??? i just don't get that.)
just because the language and actions aren't excessive, doesn't mean they don't have impact.
my main point in any of this dialogue is to make clear that i, and every female over 16 that i know, has experienced various forms of harassment ranging from mild (pity, guilt, shame, like the ones who tell you their life is ruined, and threaten to hurt themselves, how will i go on without you, etc) to extreme (insults, physical violence), throughout our teen and adult lives. (i have also experienced harassment UNDER the age of 16, but i am only speaking of things happening in my older years).
also: when you first posted i read it to my husband, an aussie, and he said "i bet they live in the country". now, i found your comment really wild because a few months ago my husband walked in on a conversation i was having with my friend. she was going to have a third date with someone at their house, and she wasn't sure is she should state before hand that sex wasn't a given, or that she could safely assume (what with both of them being in their 30's) that he would know that it wasn't. my husband laughed at her. he said "well, obviously he won't expect it'. which then led to friend and i laughing, hysterically, and then sharing various stories from our pasts that illustrate it is not obvious. not at all. he swears up and down and sideways that as a teen and young adult, he knew of NO men who were dodgy. no men who would take advantage of a woman under the influence. no men who would expect anything at all. no men who would drug a drink. etc. he also swears this just the way it is in the countryside. now, i grew up in the city. moved to a small shit kicking town at 11...because my parents were concerned over how "fast" we were "growing up" in the city (as in: boys, parties, alcohol, etc...btw i was caught drinking rum and grape juice at 11, which understandably tripped my dad out), but boy was *i* shocked at how much drinking and sexual shenanigans were ADVANCED in this tiny town, compared to the big bad city we had left. so...i can't really buy into the "country vs city" explanation, because that was NOT my experience of country. maybe it is different in aus, or maybe you two just happen to have landed in exceptional communities, or maybe it so NORMALIZED that you didn't see it...whatever the case may be, my reality and that of ALL my females has not been the reality you or my husband seem to have lived in. i am not exaggerating, madmya. i wish i was. my husband still struggles to reconcile the reality lived by those he knows vs the reality he knows. fine enough. but please do recognize that my relating my experience is not to tear down men but to illustrate to men the reality that most women live in on an ongoing basis. my relating my experiences is in hopes that some young men and women in this group will read some of this and decide "fuck that nonsense" and then actively make choices that shift the cultural norm.
Active Member
EDIT: Yes, I misinterpreted your post in a way, but lucky for me it makes sense this way too. (too tired to reword it for some better clarity right now)
EDIT 2: To clarify a bit, Lew (I so much want to type Lewd subconsciously, lol) was talking about her perspective with guys coming in here, while I shared the other side the story. It just reads weird because initially I thought she's a he and we were talking about the same thing.
Nah, I realized that a long time ago. This place is extremely antagonistic and free thoughts are hyperboled the living shit out by certain individuals if they decide so, and it's not even a "damned men!!" thing at all, some girls got wrecked too. Their house, their rules though, everyone is free to discuss feminism with other people on other boards, I'm sure there are more extreme and more liberal minded groups out there, pick what you like more.
Also, you can have discussions here too, you just have to be okay with censoring yourself, no matter how silly it is. An agreement will never be reached, but that's never the point of a good debate anyway.
Also number 2, the guy/girl (I'm gonna go with guy here, idc, he had his chance to clarify his gender, I won't keep using both at once lmao) I replied to said enormous bullshit too. He said he never heard about something like this (guy overreacting to a girl's rejection) and called it bullshit in the most childish way possible. How fucking hard is it to just say "I do not think it is as prevalent as you appear it to be, girls.", boom, suddenly one single link can't blow you the fuck out. But no, he had to say "never". Give me a break.
I wouldn't say my debates here were useless though. Some people could actually show interesting perspectives, and that's always nice, even if I did not necessarily agreed with it, at least not fully. Also, I would not be here 0-24 anyway, 70% of the stuff do not interest me, I'm more fascinated by general ideas, morality, etc. (I guess we could say a more philosophical approach), than feminism itself. That's why I really liked the Kesha case: it was very interesting on its own in many different levels, and it could have been, in my eyes, a great field for feminism to actually define itself, and not just be this rubber term, where the oversized folks with tainted glasses and the women with sensible demands regarding their treatment are not thrown under the same rug.
I mean, even if the tables would be turned, i'd be goddamn annoyed if I write my heart out, then some rando mfolk comes here, says "wtf, men being psycho with women after a rejection????????????????????? no fucking way, 100000% lie" and it all goes to the shitter because of this, cuz suddenly I'm in the same boat with him.
Not sure how I feel about my nickname, but keep using it, I feel a certain kind of arousal! This might lead somewhere, dear Lew! xoxo
Last edited by Volband; 06-08-2016 at 10:27 AM.
Re Member
flip side: if i were raising girls, instead of boys, my focus would be on making sure she understands that there is nothing wrong with being sexual or feeling sexual or exploring sexual, so long as that is what SHE WANTS. consent (both ways) and what it is. the word "slut" disappears from her vocabulary, because she knows there is NO SUCH THING. shame and guilt geared toward getting her to do things sexually or romantically are NO.
i do not think the entire burden is on men. women have a part to play in freeing themselves and their fellow women from that stupid 'good girl/bad girl' dichotomy.
as a society we are choosing to buy into some pretty stupid, pretty regressive patterns of thought and behaviour (see this brock fellow and his "alochol and PROMISCUITY" tour...yes, speak of the dangers of alcohol. yes, speak of CONSENT and what it really looks like. BUT FUCK NO YOU DO NOT THROW THAT FUCKING PATHETIC WORD IN THERE. sorry, brock. but no. promiscuity gets dropped. holy fuck in 2016 that *this* was the take away end result of this situation. and holy fuck how many people actually AGREE with that??? wtf.)
bottom line: all men and all women should be free to do whatever they wish, so long as consent is present and clear on both sides. end of story. if a dude likes to fuck a lot, he likes to fuck a lot. if a chick likes to fuck a lot, she likes to fuck a lot. there is no "slut" here. just sexually active people who are allowed to be. ta da!
Re Member
wow, shut up already eh? sheesh.
last thing, i swear.
i was very very sexually active in my teens and young adult years. i didn't lie about it or pretend i wasn't doing it. so guess what? i was a "slut". (i found it mind boggling...buddy over there is a "player"...sister over there is lying about fucking, but that is ok...da fuq, y'all???)
sometimes i would come across a dude who figured that because i would fuck, and because i wasn't pretending i wasn't, that that meant i *should* give it up to him, too. there was no thought that maybe i CHOSE who i would fuck...no, clearly being sexually active meant you had to be active with everyone and anyone. ?????? uh, hello???
if i CHOSE to fuck the entire foot ball team but for one player, who i had no interest in fucking, the reigning school of thought was that i SHOULD fuck that poor player. since i fucked 13 out of 14, surely it wasn't FAIR to 14 to be denied. seriously. and based on current college and uni stats, this thinking still persists.
"well, she fucked so and so last week, so what is the big deal that joe blow took what he wanted?". or "well, she fucked me last week, so even though she isn't interested this week i am still going to go for it."
like, prior sexual experience of any kind immediately turns you into a glory hole, or something? seriously?
what would everyone do if joe blow, campus stud and hotness personified, was taken by a group of women students and tied down and used all night? the reaction would likely be a combination of "ha, lucky guy" (SERIOUSLY. WTF IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE) or a denial that he could have been raped because he got an erection and it was well used. (SERIOUSLY, WTF IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE). or joe blow is taken by a group of gay men...now, well, the outrage would be off the charts. SERIOUSLY, WTF is wrong with people.
NOBODY OWES ANYBODY ELSE SEX. period. ever. for any reason. whatsoever.
ugh. my mind melted. i love y'all, and hope this made sense.
Captain Rustleboots
I'm all for sexual openness, bang a different guy/girl every day for all I care I won't judge you for it. That being said I think the double standard exists because if you're a guy who bangs a bunch of girls it means you're doing something "right". Most girls aren't as DTF random dudes like guys are chicks. If you're a guy who has a high number you're revered (by some) because you have "game" to some. Girls don't have to put in any work at all, most girls are just 1 or 2 texts away from a booty call with almost whomever they choose. Sexually most guys have to "hunt" (sorry), girls on the other hand usually just have to put their DTF flag and they have a line down the block.
I hope that didn't come off shitty, because people's sexual lives are their business and don't reflect their character or who they are as a person. It's just the way life is.
Bite me
Except for those two guys from Sweden.
God is an American
I think those guys are heroes. But we can't collapse this to just "good men" and "bad men". Anne's point is that we're all involved in perpetuating the culture that enabled the father and his son to get away with what they did.
Last edited by botley; 06-08-2016 at 12:13 PM.
Active Member
@Lew personally I think the hypocrisy about female promiscuity is a holdover from the times before easy access to contraception when the consequences for sex for women could be dire. (unwanted pregnancies particularly in the days when abortion was illegal) where men could just shrug it off more. It just seems to take a while for society attitudes to catch up
Re Member
@WorzelG fair enough, and true enough...i guess my big beef is why, collectively, we haven't dumped the concept of "promiscuity", period.
i have heard men referred to as "sluts" or "man whores", which is just as disturbing (though i will admit to a brief moment of enjoying it, and thinking "ha. how do you like that?!" but then straight back to: oh, wait. nope. still a collective issue.).
in magical lew-land, all adults understand consent and practice it. no human need fear walking alone, anytime. no human need fear being attacked for what they wear or don't wear....etc. (yes, simplistic beyond belief, i know...just let me pretend for a sec, ok? ;p)
ps: wasn't part of the issue also due to paternity issues? as in at some point the whole community looked after all the kids vs later when it became more "my child, my family, my responsibility" and the idea of not wanting to raise children that weren't biologically yours? (roughly speaking)...so to ensure you only supported your offspring, you create a culture that frowns upon a woman who is sexually active with more than one person (hello, maury show!) and make it literally a terrible thing..so it decreases the chances of raising a kid that isn't your biologically? (really roughly phrased here, folks. sorry. i have babble fingers and should be out the damn door right now..buuuuuuuuuut noooooooooo...i can't put this flaming laptop down, and can't shut my brain up. argh.)
Last edited by Lew; 06-08-2016 at 12:56 PM.
Re Member
@Volband ha! actually it IS lewd...well, lew. d. ;p
i come from a family of serious nicknamers...everyone has a new nickname, they constantly evolve...well, i have pet names or nicknames for the members of the board..and, clearly, yours is volby. i can't *not* nickname. it is in mah bluhd.
fyi: i have fought with my husband, and father and family and friends since both of my boys were babies because i will not tolerate anyone telling them they can't feel or express how they feel because they are male. holy fuck that infuriates me. like having a penis means you have to shut off your natural human reactions? seriously? to fit some ridiculous backward concept of what it means to be a man??? derp derp derp. (not you, volby, but that mindset). so i really am glad to see you putting down the reality that men are reared in and how it contributes to this fucking odd tapestry of morality and guiding definitions that we all collectively built. thank you for that. it is very very true, and i hope it is very very on its way out.
Active Member
Yeah I agree but people just aren't that sensible or live and let live.
I have two young boys myself and i'm going to do everything I can to teach them respect for women.
When I think about attitudes and how to change them though I wonder how things aren't better for women since WE are the ones generally bringing up the kids, both boys and girls so how do we still manage to instill sexist values in them?
Re Member
i had both of mine home until they were in kindergarten (one is 14 now, one is 8). they each had brief stints in daycare, for socializing prior to starting school.
up until the age of 5, in my case, i was primary caregiver. but..i also live(d) in a multi family situation...so one sister and one niece, and two parents (my bio father and step mother) all had daily, consistent impacts on my kids. so they weren't entirely insulated. and, though i love him dearly, my father isn't exactly as modern as he likes to think. i have mentioned how he objectifies women, and how often my kids have heard me say to him 'SHE, dad. she. she is beautiful, yes. but she isn't an it. she isn't her bum. she is someone's mother or daughter or sister'. so they have grown up hearing this. not sure, at this point, what impact is has had as the older one is asd and has zero interest in girls, boys, sex, romance or anything but video games and dungeons and dragons (hurrah!).
but, see, i over utilized the internet and t.v. when they were little. no excuses offered. so there is one big cultural influence being broadcast to them. it is insidious. a lot of times we don't notice it.
then they hit school. and with school comes friends and parties and play dates and families with different perspectives than their own. and teachers and school boards and messages.
my goal, as a parent, is to do my best to instill a sense of personal responsibility and integrity in them. because i see things VERY differently than my husband...and my family...well, there is a lot of swimming against the tide. it sucks, frankly, and it is exhausting...but it is my job as a mother.
i do my best to get them to understand that CHOICE is theirs, and it isn't always easy to choose the best way...especially if it is hard....or you are alone, swimming against the current...
one of my boys truly doesn't consider external factors. he is not a follower, in the sense that if his friends are gearing up to do something potentially stupid...he won't stick around.
the other..well, he sure does consider external factors. he cares very much how others see him, he cares about fitting in to the extent that he will go against his belief or personal feelings to do so. i am working as hard, and gently, as i can with him to get him to recognize that listening to *his* inner voice is far more important than listening to what outside voices do (obvs. not talking about authority, or anything like that).
i don't think *we* necessarily do instill the sexist values in them. i think we do the best we can, and then hope that when they hit the big wide world and all of its conditioning, they choose to follow what feels right and true. i really don't know what else to say, or do.
my niece is 13 and they just had a big "girl's power day" type of thing. i was all happy until she told me that they were ACTIVELY encouraging the girls to dress 'GIRLY" so then niece has to listen to me wonder, "what the hell does dressing girly have to do with female empowerment????" i told her if *her* girly was to go in a gorilla suit, then that is *her* girly. like, i get that trying to get girls together, and build support systems and such, is a great thing...but to me, they failed by adding on "dress girly. wear pink". what does that tell girls who aren't into pink, or frills, or makeup or dresses? that they are NOT feminine? it just seemed like such an odd thing to tack onto such a great idea. *right there, with this forum for girls, we have sexism creeping in*
Re Member
see, what does respect look like, though?
my husband sees respect as something that the children have to give him, as he is an adult. actually, all of the adults around me see it this way.
i don't. i see respect as something you model, not expect. and they aren't actually going to get it or "see" it until they reach a certain age and stage of self reflection, anyway. all you get at this age is parroting.
to teach my boys to respect women, they need to see it in action. if my husband is disrespectful to me...well, they are going to think that *that* is how you treat your wife. and vice versa, if i am disrespectful to my husband, they learn that is how husbands are treated. if i talk shit about women, and they hear me, then that is how they are going to think women treat each other. etc.
i am no saint, btw. i have modelled appalling language, poor temper control and my sense of humour can be "interesting", i am sarcastic and they are too. so please don't mistake me for playing perfect mother, perfect woman. i certainly hope it is not coming across like that. i struggle daily to get to the place i know i need to be. it ain't always easy, but i always ALL WAYS strive.
Last edited by Lew; 06-08-2016 at 04:19 PM.
Active Member
Isn't this what everyone shoot be aiming for?
Active Member
I am doing that too, but since it's the feminism thread I focussed the answer on women.
Bite me
But see also this.
Edit: This, too.
Last edited by allegro; 06-09-2016 at 12:55 AM.
Active Member
It's apples and oranges. The norm is that men are taught to respect women, so it makes WORLDS of difference what you meant there. I don't know, do some of you confuse the extremities towards women as a worldwide lack of respect? Go into anywhere and just randomly shove a guy, then a woman, and compare the results. There is most likely many ways to refine said respect, but to say it like it's not already there... sorry, but that's just bollocks.
However, teaching respect toward everyone is much better than the former, because it even alleviates some of the drawbacks of the current norm of teaching boys to respect girls. It's an all around better idea, albeit probably harder to teach and explain.
But you can't just put your blindfold on and say go ahead boys, cry wherever and whenever you feel like it! Would that be normal? Yes. Is that the right principle though? Not sure. If they get mocked in the school because of it, then it's suddenly not so easy. I mean, what are you going to do? Talk with the head teacher and ridicule your kid even more? Take him to another school?
It's just one theoretical question, there are many more. I had good friends so never really got any shit for being a crybaby, so in that way I lucked out, but it can't be said for everyone. I think the single most important thing a parent can do is to be friends with their children, and after that, even if you are shitty at parenting, ie. let's say you are uneducated and just can't help them out with the questions of the Universe, you will most likely still raise a healthier kid than someone who might be very intelligent but keeps their distance from their children. See, if you are friends with your boys, then they can just go up to you, hug you and cry on your shoulder if they feel like, so even if society might backlash on them for showing weakness in front of everyone, if they can just release it somehow, like through you, it should be all good.
I mean, if you have this "younger" attitude, that's almost like half success in befriending children and teenagers. But if you have a stick up in your ass and say stuff like "[BOY1] and [BOY2], you are going to cry in front of everyone, you heard me?? Don't let anyone oppress you!! Check your privileges!!", then... brrr. I was about to say that these women are about to raise an extremely dumb generation, but remembered that they probably straight out reject the oppression that is bearing and raising a child, so whoosh.
Active Member
I was only referring to me and my own kids in my comment and doesnt the situation with Brock Turner suggest that boys DON'T get taught to respect women as a matter of course?
Active Member
I'm out of the loop about this Brock guy (who the hell is called Brock anyway), but this just sounds like another extreme. No one will follow it, especially because part of the initial learning of respect towards girls come from the principle of mother above everything else.
Active Member
There's an awful lot of extremes, don't you think ?
When you teach respect to kids, you teach them to respect everyone, sure. But you don't address the subject the same way whether you're talking about sex, race, class, etc. Each instance of that lesson is a different one. Each reason you have that conversation is a different one. You educate your kids on a case by case basis : Fire is dangerous so don't go near the stove again, bleach is poisonous so don't touch that bottle. Broad statements don't work. "Respect every human being" doesn't mean shit to a 5 year old. So yeah, you teach respect to women because you teach that kid that you should respect that woman there, and the others too by the way. That's how it works.
Also please don't #alllivesmatter in the feminist thread.
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