Star Wars: The Last Jedi - SPOILERS

[Volband]

Speaking of social and political commentary, TLJ gave us some within the world of the movie. DJ wasn’t a very interesting character, but he did give some of the most interesting commentary in the film. He basically told Fin and Rose that Spoiler: the war between the Empire/Rebellion or First Order/Resistance was all just an ongoing machine. He told them that they demonize the First Order for trying to kill them, but that the Resistance was just the flipside of the same coin. And he made the point that the only people in the galaxy who were really benefiting from this apparently ceaseless war were the wartime profiteers. That struck me as a pretty self-aware and candid moment in the film.

And, anyone else think that at the end of this film Poe, Fin and Rose should feel a little more responsible for Spoiler: getting most of the resistance killed because of their botched plan?

Not focusing on that political commentary showed exactly what's the problem with this movie: it is only brave on the surface. The movie IMPLIES that it could have been a ground-breaking episode in the SW franchise, but when it mattered, it backed out like a coward. Those tiny grey moments in this movie are the best - aside from some action scenes. But what did we learn at the end of TLJ? Love >>>> everything else. People were getting murdered left and right, yet the movie felt the need to tell us, that it's okay to let your buddies killed, it's all about the hormones anyway.

Yes-yes, I know it's a family movie and all, but come on... that scene was so out of touch with everything, it still hurts my brain. And yeah, no remorse at all? Not even a minute long scene where they go mental and depressed that it's their fault? Extremely weird.

[Shadaloo]

Came back from a second viewing last night. The things I both loved and hated about the film stood out in greater relief. Going forward this thing's a solid 6/10 for me.

[Volband]

6 is my final rating as well, even though I'm going to watch it for a third time sometime next week. Many people are rating it 1 or 10, which in the end reflects the "true" rating of this movie rather well. It's obviously not a 1 nor a 10, it's just people being melodramatic on both sides.

I would never tell anyone not to watch this movie; quite the contrary. TLJ is one of the highest quality of "I want some popcorn and pew-pew BUT in space!!!" movies. It manages to give something for every age group. On the other hand, it's plot is the worst fucking Star Wars writing that is considered canon* and feels more like "Episode VII - by Rian Johnson" than an actual episode VIII; which - quite understandably - gets many of our blood boiling. Maybe I'm blind, but from what I've seen here and on other boards, it seems to me that most people are aware of this. It's just some tabloid bullshit that people want to retcon TLJ, and there are also not many people who straight out refuse to accept at least some of its glaring faults.

*the prequels are more boring than bad; cheesy dialogues aside, the story wasn't all that bad or incoherent, but then again, maybe it's just TLJ who put the bar so damn low that I'm even saying things like this.

[Dr Channard]

*the prequels are more boring than bad; cheesy dialogues aside, the story wasn't all that bad or incoherent...

The actual story of the prequels is good, it’s the narrative (the way the story is told) and the technical execution that was bad. Lucas and co. had a big picture in mind for 1-6, and each installment lends itself to completing the overall story, some much better than others. That’s another element that feels missing in the two new installments, for me at least. Two movies in and it doesn’t feel to me like there was a clear-cut big picture story in place before they started driving the narrative forward. Maybe episode 9 will prove me wrong?

[GulDukat]

This movie was fucking awesome. I'm no Star Wars fanboy and could go on and on with flaws of the prequels (which I still see some merit in), but this movie was simply fantastic. I was expecting some dull moments, superfluous side stories and lame jokes, based on some comments I have read here and elsewhere, but no, this movie was fucking amazing on every level--action, fleshed-out characters, visuals, pace and storytelling. And it retroactively makes TFA even better.

[neorev]

^^^
What the person above said.

[Louie_Cypher]

watched the phantom menace last night, it's still horrible, besides jar-jar, horrible dialogue and story, silly use of CGI and tie in to a new hope for no reason, besides peddling merch over use of light sabers which strangely more like katakana, that's it Disney, should by the rights to kill bill and make the kill bill cinematic universe, every movie could another deadly viper squad mission no wait that that would be interesting something I would like and pay for so Disney there's an established streaming site for sale over there!
-Louie

[Dr Channard]

So, based on what we’ve seen thus far, any guesses on where episode 9 will go with the story?

Also, with Kylo’s Spoiler: proposal to Rey to join him following the death of Snoke, was he expressing a romantic interest in her, or was that just him looking for her to be his dark side apprentice?

[Volband]

This movie was fucking awesome. I'm no Star Wars fanboy and could go on and on with flaws of the prequels (which I still see some merit in), but this movie was simply fantastic. I was expecting some dull moments, superfluous side stories and lame jokes, based on some comments I have read here and elsewhere, but no, this movie was fucking amazing on every level--action, fleshed-out characters, visuals, pace and storytelling. And it retroactively makes TFA even better.

Is this a satire? Fleshed out characters in a movie, where
- people literally forgetting that they are powerful Force users
- nothing happens with one of the main characters in the entire movie, yet in the end Spoiler: she is crowned as the last Jedi
- main characters indirectly slaughter their friends without showing ANY remorse, confusion or... or, really, any feeling whatsoever
- a forced love story results in the idea of "saving my love - whom I almost know for half a day now - is more important than saving the entire Spoiler: Resistance, including our very own general
- Luke Skywalker is being pulled by marionette strings, and his actions does not make sense, whether you watch it with rose-tinted OT glasses, or without having any idea who Luke is.
- a droid can gag and bound 4 guards all alone
- a military leader refuses to tell her comrades her escape plan, when there is absolutely no reason for her not to do it. It later gets them slaughtered - but no one questions her.

How can you guys laugh at a really dumb petition, when you do the same on the other end of the spectrum?

So, based on what we’ve seen thus far, any guesses on where episode 9 will go with the story?

Also, with Kylo’s Spoiler: proposal to Rey to join him following the death of Snoke, was he expressing a romantic interest in her, or was that just him looking for her to be his dark side apprentice?

That scene (and what lead up to it) actually shows a character development. Kylo Spoiler: is confused, just like Rey, so he asks for her help. Not to be his Sith aprrentice; rather to solve this cruel task of being a gifted Force user. Basically both of them need help, but Kylo supposed to represent the forward momentum. Fuck the Jedi, fuck the Sith, don't let anyone control us, let's make a brave new world! A very understandable sentiment, but sadly, Rey's character got anti-developed she refused it, because of the sole reason of it being in her script. After Luke basically giving Rey the finger and finding out that her parents are nobodies and treated her like shit, she should not have acted so self-righteous. The whole story of Rey is her being treated like garbage, while her motto remains "I still believe!!" On hand, it is adorable, on the other hand, it makes absolutely no sense. This girl can not be broken; her thinking can not be challenged. She is like a robot and I absolutely loathe the writers for pissing away such a cool character as her in this episode.

edit: to be clear, the writing is not horseshit because she declined the offer. It's horseshit, because Spoiler: there was absolutely no reasoning behind it. Remember the scenes from RotJ with Luke, Vader and the Emperor? The back and forths? Yeah? Well this movie said - again - "fuck you", and all we got was Rey trying to get her lightsaber to... threaten him? Kill him? We don't know, and the movie never felt the need to explain what went through Rey's head or why she decided not to join him. Hell, why didn't she try to negotiate with him??????? For the first fucking half of the movie they keep getting closer to the point of being all friendly near the bonfire. And you want to tell me the same Rey would not even try to reason with Kylo????? Jesus, I just realized this actually. Character development my ass. This movie has 0 character consistency.

[Pillfred]

"I liked this movie, and if you didn't, you should stop watching movies, because - as I said - I liked it."

What a compelling argument... lock the thread! See you guys at the Han Solo movie.

You got your lulz. Congrats.

[Volband]

Since you guys have trouble to level-headedly review this movie (which is excusable if you've just seen it), I think there is a great need to list some of the things this movie got right. I mean, if someone goes to the cinema because they read in this thread that this movie is the ABSOLUTE BEST and it has 10/10 character development, then they are setting themselves up for a disappointment.

So why should you watch The Last Jedi (minor spoilers ahead)?

- The animations and sounds are amazing. When shit explode, it EXPLODES. When eventually lightsabers are being used, the sound they make on the surface of a certain armor is simply the best. I thought you can't top the - admittedly over the top - lightsaber effects showed in the Prequels, but yes, you can. There's also that one scene in the movie... yes, THAT ONE. Honestly, for me, that alone worth the admission price. It's not exactly original; if you watch action animes you surely seen it before, but to witness it in such a big franchise backed up with such a big budget... whew! Most of the people in my friends circle disliked the movie, but if I ask "that scene was cool though, aye?" they all say yeah, that was awesome.

- The action. I watched all (new) Star Trek movies in hopes of getting this feeling, but only managed to pull it off here and there. A Star Trek movie has like 2 big budget action scenes which are great, and the rest are meh. In TLJ (though it could be said about TFA as well) you are constantly treated with dosage of high-quality action scenes. Yes, it figures that the most meaningless subplot of this movie has the worst action scene as well, but - going back to my earlier point - even that has some great sound effects as the glasses shatter. Yeah, don't tell me I'm hard to please Break some glasses and tables and I'm entertained.

- Not just X-Wings! I am still not happy with the spacecraft quality of both the Resistance and the First Order, because compared to RotJ and Rogue One there's a lot of space (heh-heh) to improve, but this time we get different spaceships as well for the Resistance, so I'm happy. I'm still unsure if they were modified A-Wings though or something else. The bomber looked kinda lame, but meh, I take it.

- Kylo's lightsaber form. So, I consider myself an SW fan, but not the "I read all the EU, have all the posters and know all the lightsaber forms"-kind. I know there are different forms and they go reaaaallly deep about someone's personality or role, but TFA established Kylo as a raw "I don't give a fuck" fighter and the very, very few things TLJ actually followed instead of retconned was this. And even improved upon it! The way Kylo swings and uses his lightsaber is a thing of beauty, and to me, it represents the new era of Star Wars. A claymore saber being swung around by a madman, yet it's far from being mindless.

- Kylo and Rey's relationship is the single best thing this movie gives us story-wise, and it's biggest fault is that it eventually comes to an abrupt end. But it is actually a bold way to try to herd together the main protagonist with the main antagonist. It is refreshing to see enemies finding comfort in each other, while still radiating some distrust or even despise to one another. Those moments in the movie really feel like two human beings are interacting.

- If I were to make a good and a bad list about TLJ, both list would have simply this: "Luke". There are many things wrong with Luke and how they handled it, but at the same time, they got some things quite right. As the dust settles, I think my favorite scene in the movie is actually with Luke, when he goes crazy and is being taught an important, slice-of-life lesson from someone. I think many people are missing that scene, and treating it as a good or bad cameo. It was much more than that - for me at least.

- DJ (I never even knew that's his name) is great. Everything he represents is great. But as I said, the movie was too afraid to go into the "not everything is black and white" direction, and only dealt with it on the surface. Still, that one scene where he talks about the sad reality of war could be expanded upon in episode IX. But you see, this is where different directors really suck. Rian didn't give a shit about what J.J. wrote and it will probably be vice versa, and this scene will be forgotten. Anyway, that scenes how to show politics in an interesting way, unlike in the Prequels.

- Rose's character. Now hold up, back up with the pitchforks! Yes, the way they wrote her story and the arc she was in was disgustingly bad. Yes, during her "LOVE CONQUERS EVERYTHING, YIPPEEEEEEEE" I could break open a coconut on her head. But hear me out! Under all the bullshit she was written into, she's actually a very likeable character. That scene when she throws in her memento as payment without any hesitation is A+ my friends. And this is what grinds my gears. The movie can be so dull and Disney-like that you'd expect her to give a 5 minute long monologue about the importance of that necklace and her family, but nope. She behaves like an adult. It's war and they are dealing with a scum.

- The comedy. We've discussed the misplaced bits a ton. Yes, they are murdering the very little integrity of what this story even has, but some of them I think are actually great and well-placed comic relief. The aboriginals on the island or the Chewie cooking scenes are simply great. Basically when the movie did not try to be funny during scenes where people were burning alive, it wasn't all that bad.

- Luke in the final battle. Again, many things are off with Luke, but that scene is controversial at most. There is nothing bad with controversial; I like controversial. It's just that people forget that absolute shit and controversial are not synonyms when we have these pointless debates.

- Leia and her power. Yes, by the end it was a glaring plot hole, but when i first saw the movie I was happy with that Superman scene. I thought "fuck yeah, this is going to be some awesome Skywalker action!!" I like heroines in general, so I nodded with acceptance during that scene, because I believe she deserved that recognition. Again, a controversial scene but I refuse to call it bad. It's only bad in hindsight, when she forgets she is actually Gandalf.

- Poe. The single character who actually learned a lot in this episode. Kylo was kinda brute-forced and since the writer's couldn't keep Rey up with her, he suffered some as well. But Poe was great. I think he was believable, and by the end of the movie, I would not even mind a spin-off movie with him being the main character. It's sad that when he could have confronted Holdo and voice all of our frustration, he was silenced by the writers, *cough*, i mean Leia, and by the time he woke up it was too late. Anyway, he is a breath of fresh air among all the characters who talk big but do nothing. He had his hero moments, he had his fuckups, he was... human. I can relate to humans, don't know about you.

- Chewie.

You got your lulz. Congrats.

Try to write something sensible instead of being some mindless gatekeeper. If all you can muster up is that, then don't even bother writing it down. "I liked the movie and if you didn't you are an idiot xdddddd" is one of the oldest clichés in the book, and you shouldn't be surprised if you get ridiculed for it. No one expects you to defend the movie; you can just simply say you enjoyed it a lot. But if you are going to call out others, then don't be too lazy to use the buttons on your keyboard.

[valiantsteed]

I think Rian's new trilogy idea for me pretty well sums up exactly the issues that are rampant throughout the core of TLJ.

Given an opportunity to paint with a cleaner canvas, he decides he wants to do an entire 3 movie arc featuring absolutely no characters or worlds or anything from the original 6 films.

Admirable ambition it appears on the surface. Except guess what? You don't need the Star Wars brand to do that. You can do just do that now if you want, he's Rian Johnson and he just grossed 220 mil on opening weekend. What purpose does it serve you as a director to have it be a Star Wars movie if nothing about it is actually from Star Wars?

Answer: It gives you bigger budgets and more eyeballs. Food for a hungry ego and nothing more.

Using Star Wars as a mere vehicle to make non SW films you want to make is shameful and narcissistic, just like TLJ is. Instead of acknowledging he had his shot, and wanting to return to a world where we can make his own original films, he is now robbing other directors of playing in the franchise without actually using anything from it that fans want to see.

He has an opportunity to play with so many stories, so many characters, so many paths not travelled between all the films. Why would you not want to use or explore Boba Fett? Why would you not want to tell early Jedi stories and use Yoda or Qui Gonn or the Old republic or the sith or a million other existing half fleshed out ideas which you could still make your own and take license with.

But no. His ideas are BETTER. His stories are more RELEVANT. Everything else is BORING to him. I can't fathom as a filmmaker getting these opportunities and throwing them aside like they are nothing.

Now it's still so early in the process creatively for him, he may change his mind on some elements, who knows what the finished story is going to look like, and it could very well be excellent given there will be nothing really for him to tarnish this time around, but instead of being excited I'm highly skeptical.

And not because I didn't like TLJ. I actually had little to no issue with many of the other things people complained about; rose, the casino city, kylo's turn, etc.

I think it's entirely plausible to show a deep seeded love in the saga and still create something new and ambitious at the same time while not constantly pandering to sheer fan service. They are not mutually exclusive. But Rian, sadly, believes that they are.

And he will likely continue to believe that in these three new films. Which even if they are excellent, it will still be a shame that they were wasted by using the Star Wars moniker when he really did not need it, he was just fucking greedy. Star Wars is his now, and he doesn't really want it, but he is also not letting it go.

Edit; FYI the limited edition best buy exclusive steelbook 4k combo pack is up for preorder now if you are so inclined.

[valiantsteed]

Oh also; number 1 thing I am looking forward to in Episode IX.

Phasma being ressurected for about 5 more seconds, only to have one more ultimate bitch death to complete the trifecta.

[Volband]

Oh also; number 1 thing I am looking forward to in Episode IX.

Phasma being ressurected for about 5 more seconds, only to have one more ultimate bitch death to complete the trifecta.

The actress who plays her has been in every promotion show and event since TFA. before TLJ she kept saying that they sat down with the writers and they did so many awesoem stuff with Phasma. In one interview she was talking about how cool it was that she could influence her character's (Phasma) personality and whatnot.

Then she gets rekt again, not to mention that she was standing right next to the ones who were to be executed, but after the impact she teleported soemwhere else and returned with her stormtroopers.

1. How can you make someone so fucking lame with such a cool armor?
2. Why do I have to hear her actress talking about the movie, when she's barely in it, and she doesn't do anything important to the plot either. (Remember: it was the droid who caught them, not Phasma)

[Dr Channard]

IThat scene (and what lead up to it) actually shows a character development. Kylo Spoiler: is confused, just like Rey, so he asks for her help. Not to be his Sith aprrentice; rather to solve this cruel task of being a gifted Force user. Basically both of them need help, but Kylo supposed to represent the forward momentum. Fuck the Jedi, fuck the Sith, don't let anyone control us, let's make a brave new world! A very understandable sentiment, but sadly, Rey's character got anti-developed she refused it, because of the sole reason of it being in her script. After Luke basically giving Rey the finger and finding out that her parents are nobodies and treated her like shit, she should not have acted so self-righteous. The whole story of Rey is her being treated like garbage, while her motto remains "I still believe!!" On hand, it is adorable, on the other hand, it makes absolutely no sense. This girl can not be broken; her thinking can not be challenged. She is like a robot and I absolutely loathe the writers for pissing away such a cool character as her in this episode.

edit: to be clear, the writing is not horseshit because she declined the offer. It's horseshit, because Spoiler: there was absolutely no reasoning behind it. Remember the scenes from RotJ with Luke, Vader and the Emperor? The back and forths? Yeah? Well this movie said - again - "fuck you", and all we got was Rey trying to get her lightsaber to... threaten him? Kill him? We don't know, and the movie never felt the need to explain what went through Rey's head or why she decided not to join him. Hell, why didn't she try to negotiate with him??????? For the first fucking half of the movie they keep getting closer to the point of being all friendly near the bonfire. And you want to tell me the same Rey would not even try to reason with Kylo????? Jesus, I just realized this actually. Character development my ass. This movie has 0 character consistency.

Spoiler: That “kill it all” part of his speech seemed completely disingenuous. If he really came to the epiphany that he had been manipulated by Snoke and that it was all bullshit and that he wanted to forge his own way from now on, why does he then immediately crown himself the new supreme leader of the first order and continue to carry on the same old Sith/Empire fight against the Luke, the jedi, and the resistance? He‘s just continuing to be a tool of the dark side waring against the light. Not the actions of someone who wants to break the cycle.

1. How can you make someone so fucking lame with such a cool armor?
2. Why do I have to hear her actress talking about the movie, when she's barely in it, and she doesn't do anything important to the plot either. (Remember: it was the droid who caught them, not Phasma)

Wasn’t Phasma the one who lowered the shields on starkiller in TFA so that the resistance could blow it up? She was mockingly telling Fin that the resistance could never win, they point a gun at her and tell her to lower the shields, she says “ok” and lowers the shields and the resistance wins and destroys starkiller. Spoiler: Why didn’t Snoke or Hux have her executed for aiding the enemy after that? Wasn’t Snoke a master at reading minds and knowing what was going on around him? How was Phasma still in any kind of position of power after that?

[Volband]

Spoiler: That “kill it all” part of his speech seemed completely disingenuous. If he really came to the epiphany that he had been manipulated by Snoke and that it was all bullshit and that he wanted to forge his own way from now on, why does he then immediately crown himself the new supreme leader of the first order and continue to carry on the same old Sith/Empire fight against the Luke, the jedi, and the resistance? He‘s just continuing to be a tool of the dark side waring against the light. Not the actions of someone who wants to break the cycle.



Wasn’t Phasma the one who lowered the shields on starkiller in TFA so that the resistance could blow it up? She was mockingly telling Fin that the resistance could never win, they point a gun at her and tell her to lower the shields, she says “ok” and lowers the shields and the resistance wins and destroys starkiller. Spoiler: Why didn’t Snoke or Hux have her executed for aiding the enemy after that? Wasn’t Snoke a master at reading minds and knowing what was going on around him? How was Phasma still in any kind of position of power after that?

All this black hurts my eyes, so SPOILERS ahead.

It's important to note that Ben has some very serious self-esteem issues, and he was kinda conditioned into it. Sadly, we barely learned anything in TLJ about his relationship with Luke, but being a descendant of the Skywalker bloodline, while your dad is the single coolest guy in the galaxy is bound to give you some complexes. Ie. watch how Anakin fell apart just by being labeled the Chosen One and such. The point is, he desperately wants to prove himself, that he is worthy. Both Luke and Snoke considered him a disappointment, to add insult to injury.

I want to know everything
I want to be everywhere
I want to fuck everyone in the world
I want to do something that matters


I think it's very much reasonable that he eventually snapped and fell into the trap of many classical villain stories: "they were bad guys, but I am not, therefore what I'm about to do is right." He considers himself and Rey above the Sith and Jedi conflict, and having such high aspirations and numerous points to prove, he reached the conclusion that the past needs to be forgotten. Which would be extremely comfortable for him, because all his insecurities stem from his past. He failed as a Jedi and failed his powerful lineage, but he also failed as a Sith and his other line of lineage. But if they were to erase it all, then suddenly he is just Kylo Ren, a very powerful guy. And without anyone to compare him to, he is indeed the strongest mofo in the universe.

So all in all, in his mind he does want to break the cycle, he just fails to realize that at the end of the day, he is still fueling what the Dark side would want him to do. And this is where Rey should come into the picture, but she did not say jackshit, she just left the ship asap.

As for Phasma, she was pretty much forced to do it, wasn't she? If anything, a Sith should respect someone placing their own life above everything else. It's a Jedi thing to die some noble death. He told Kylo that the reason he keeps Hux around, because he is a talented tactician, but too stupid for his own good, so he is basically on a leash.

[allegate]

Is this a satire? Fleshed out characters in a movie, where
- people literally forgetting that they are powerful Force users
- nothing happens with one of the main characters in the entire movie, yet in the end Spoiler: she is crowned as the last Jedi
- main characters indirectly slaughter their friends without showing ANY remorse, confusion or... or, really, any feeling whatsoever
- a forced love story results in the idea of "saving my love - whom I almost know for half a day now - is more important than saving the entire Spoiler: Resistance, including our very own general
- Luke Skywalker is being pulled by marionette strings, and his actions does not make sense, whether you watch it with rose-tinted OT glasses, or without having any idea who Luke is.
- a droid can gag and bound 4 guards all alone
- a military leader refuses to tell her comrades her escape plan, when there is absolutely no reason for her not to do it. It later gets them slaughtered - but no one questions her.

How can you guys laugh at a really dumb petition, when you do the same on the other end of the spectrum?

That scene (and what lead up to it) actually shows a character development. Kylo Spoiler: is confused, just like Rey, so he asks for her help. Not to be his Sith aprrentice; rather to solve this cruel task of being a gifted Force user. Basically both of them need help, but Kylo supposed to represent the forward momentum. Fuck the Jedi, fuck the Sith, don't let anyone control us, let's make a brave new world! A very understandable sentiment, but sadly, Rey's character got anti-developed she refused it, because of the sole reason of it being in her script. After Luke basically giving Rey the finger and finding out that her parents are nobodies and treated her like shit, she should not have acted so self-righteous. The whole story of Rey is her being treated like garbage, while her motto remains "I still believe!!" On hand, it is adorable, on the other hand, it makes absolutely no sense. This girl can not be broken; her thinking can not be challenged. She is like a robot and I absolutely loathe the writers for pissing away such a cool character as her in this episode.

edit: to be clear, the writing is not horseshit because she declined the offer. It's horseshit, because Spoiler: there was absolutely no reasoning behind it. Remember the scenes from RotJ with Luke, Vader and the Emperor? The back and forths? Yeah? Well this movie said - again - "fuck you", and all we got was Rey trying to get her lightsaber to... threaten him? Kill him? We don't know, and the movie never felt the need to explain what went through Rey's head or why she decided not to join him. Hell, why didn't she try to negotiate with him??????? For the first fucking half of the movie they keep getting closer to the point of being all friendly near the bonfire. And you want to tell me the same Rey would not even try to reason with Kylo????? Jesus, I just realized this actually. Character development my ass. This movie has 0 character consistency.

Get over yourself. He likes it, you don't.

[Volband]

Get over yourself. He likes it, you don't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum

You're welcome.

[valiantsteed]

FYI The comic mini-series Phasma is about an imperial who witnessed what Phasma did in TFA, and leaves Starkiller Base and goes into hiding. Phasma hunts them down and kills them thus 'closing' the loop, if that means anything to anyone.

Also - what do people think about the Snoke 2.0 theories?

I highly doubt Rian intended it, but JJ could easily retcon it and it might actually make some sense.

If you look at the dialogue before Snoke gets chopped in half closely, it reads more like he wanted that exact thing to happen. Is it possible that he also force projected himself? Or he used a clone body aka why he is all decaying all the time? And he knew Kylo needed to strike him down to reach his true potential and take control of the first order?

And now Snoke will operate from the shadows once again before revealing his true grand scheme in IX. He did take credit for mind melding Kylo and Rey, and yet it still continues to happen after his death?

I dont know how I'd feel about that, because I wouldn't want to marginalize the Kylo arc, but it's at least one of the few plot lines that could be potentially interesting for 9, as I am racking my brain to come up with a reasonable framework for a story arc that makes sense to close the trilogy, but consistently come up empty for the majority.

There is not a lot left to work with. Disney may have actually supported the killing of Snoke to throw everyone off the trail with all of the theories etc and just put that to rest, so they could turn around and still use him, this time with much less expectation, pressure, and spotlight.

What do people that liked the film actually want or expect to happen in 9? I'm curious what does a legit close out of the trilogy look like to you? I mean if you are just taking it film by film and enjoying it for what it is that's fine, but it's still the second film in a trilogy and has to eventually connect the plot points in some way, shape, or form. Doesn't it?

Do they start the film shortly after it's end like usual, or jump ahead 5-10 years? Would be much easier to just write off Leia's off-screen death in the crawl if you did the latter, similar to say, The Dark Knight Rises. You create some other problems by doing so, but you are going to have those either way now no matter what, and the story freedom you have increases by the more time that passes. Poe leading the resistance, whose ranks are a bit bigger now thanks to some of the slave children grown up, Rey can be fully trained, etc.

But if Rey legit doesnt get any more on screen training, you will for the third time have ignored any opportunity to dispute the mary sue talk, which I am not crazy about, but ultimately now has some validity as everything concerning her real learning gets glossed over and is really starting not to feel earned at all. It made some sense in TFA if she was left there having been previously trained and was mind wiped/blocked and was accessing already existing skills, or if she was some prodigy ala Ben with the skywalker blood, but since none of that actually happened apparently, and she basically did not get any real training from Luke in TLJ whatsoever, it's still a glaring lack of character development for who I assume is meant to be the face of the franchise when all is said and done.

Whereas if you start IX shortly after TLJ ends, you can still have Rey do some extensive training with spirit Luke as she readies for a final showdown with an unleashed Kylo (which is obviously the most likely conclusion to the trilogy at this point regardless of what happens), addressing all the previous weak plot points during the time, while also continue to re-use the excellent Hamill and give him some more meat to chew on, after a more reserved first real appearance in the sequel trilogy.

[Volband]

FYI The comic mini-series Phasma is about an imperial who witnessed what Phasma did in TFA, and leaves Starkiller Base and goes into hiding. Phasma hunts them down and kills them thus 'closing' the loop, if that means anything to anyone.

Gee, next time they should write these cool stuff into the movies first, lol. I don't mind books or comics giving some background to established characters, but we don't know jackshit about a character after 2 movies, yet judged solely by TV appearances, you'd think she is more important that Kylo.

Snoke 2.0. could happen but it would be rather lame. Then again, how else are you gonna present a "big bad" in the last episode? Kylo is an interesting character, but a very weak final boss.

[allegate]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum

You're welcome.

Yup, you got me. Whew.

There's too much hate in this thread as is so I'm just going to bounce.

[Volband]

Yup, you got me. Whew.

There's too much hate in this thread as is so I'm just going to bounce.

Not everyone can handle threads about a dividing topic, let alone understand what forums are for. Gives me a good a chuckle every time, when people expect it to be their personal blog with comments disabled, then act all surprised when being interacted with. How old are internet boards exactly? One would assume that our generation is familiar enough with it.

edit: though TFA was the same, except I was writing essays "for the other side". Not sure what's worse: dealing with people who can not comprehend what a bowcaster shot to your stomach do, or people who has trouble accepting that a movie might be worse than a 10/10. Probably the former though. That shit REALLY got on my nerves. I still have nightmares about people bitching about Rey being too strong in the last fight.

[valiantsteed]

For the record I haven't seen any hate? Why is it not possible for people to say they dislike the film without being offensive to those who liked it?

Like I was discussing the problems with this film with someone and he blew up at me for saying the writing was terrible. He asked for an example. This is what I gave him;

Luke went by himself to face down the two most evil people in the galaxy, in the Emperor and Vader, and he went alone at the risk of martyrdom not to kill Vader, but turn him back to the light. Fast forward to now and he was afraid of the dark side tendencies and the power of his nephew, his sister's only son with his best friend Han, and considers killing him in his sleep but gets caught and basically creates Kylo unintentionally. Ok fine, maybe I can buy that, it's a stretch but THEN Luke tells Rey (after seeing her strength in the force) "I've seen this raw strength only once before, it DIDN'T scare me enough then. It does now!"

Well, which one is it? Either he was scared of the dark side tendency in Kylo and thought about killing him in his sleep...or he WASN'T scared but got scared after he saw it in REY. So why contemplate killing Kylo if it didn't scare him yet?

In hindsight that line makes zero sense. But when I explained why that line bothered me the guy blew up, shut me out, and ended the conversation. Can we not, as fans, talk about the films flaws, reasonably?

For some, I don't think we can, because it forces them to rationally evaluate why they liked the film in the first place and that brings them to a weird place. Now I don't think you need a reason, or to justify why you liked it, you can just like it, that's ok, but some people struggle with what that means for them since they may have to reconsider changing their opinion on it because of other things they may not have considered before, and that causes some inner conflict between emotion and logic within them.

[Volband]

@valiantsteed Well said! European, I assume? Just kidding, just kidding.

To play the Devil's advocate, I'm gonna try to defend our brethren who are cowering in fear in their corner. TLJ gets a lot of unwarranted criticism, like that idiotic petition or blaming Disney for everything. Some of these people also go on a crusade to tell everyone that this movie is a 1/10, worst in the franchise and that you should never watch it. I think we can all agree that it is simply not true, this movie is very far from being a 1. It's also understandable now how those who really liked the movie take it personally and feel the need to overcompensate. They would give TLj an 8/10, then see some neackbeards ranting about the movie, giving it zero stars, then they change their rating to a 10/10 to "battle the Devil".

The more people watch this movie, the more divided we become, and the more knee-jerk reactions will follow. Sides form and they try to 1-up each other. You say this is the worst movie of the year? Well then this is the best movie of the year!!!! And so on. It doesn't matter what you say; it's either a good or a bad opinion and fuck you, if you don't preach what I would like to hear. This is what's happening now everywhere, though it's better on boards where are more active users, because it's less apparent, and there are more level-headed users on average.

But you are right. There is absolutely no need for any excuse to call someone out on their review or their (negative or positive) criticism. It's what discussion boards are about: you can't just shit here some meaningless stuff like "this is the best/worst movie ever, if you disagree, kys" without being called out and reasoned with. If you can't take it, then why even bother with trolling?

No one will be called out just for saying they liked or disliked the movie. At most I'd ask them what did they like or dislike.

For me, meaningful discussion is quite stimulating. When I finished TLJ for the first time, my first reaction was that it's better than TFA, which I actually rated around a 9 I think. By the time I went home, I wasn't so sure. Long story short, exchanging opinions - even with the most stubborn people who have different opinions than me - helped me a lot to flesh out my views on this movie. There were things I thought sucked, but upon discussing, learned to at least accept them, but there were also things I've never even considered how bad they were until someone else pointed it out to me.

And yeah, things are bound to get heated. It's many of our favorite franchise and we've waited 2 years for this. You won't see people getting into fights over Jumanji.

Luke went by himself to face down the two most evil people in the galaxy, in the Emperor and Vader, and he went alone at the risk of martyrdom not to kill Vader, but turn him back to the light. Fast forward to now and he was afraid of the dark side tendencies and the power of his nephew, his sister's only son with his best friend Han, and considers killing him in his sleep but gets caught and basically creates Kylo unintentionally. Ok fine, maybe I can buy that, it's a stretch but THEN Luke tells Rey (after seeing her strength in the force) "I've seen this raw strength only once before, it DIDN'T scare me enough then. It does now!"

Well, which one is it? Either he was scared of the dark side tendency in Kylo and thought about killing him in his sleep...or he WASN'T scared but got scared after he saw it in REY. So why contemplate killing Kylo if it didn't scare him yet?

Wait, doesn't that make sense? It did not scare him enough in Kylo so he kept training him, but now he was like fuck this shit, I won't raise another Sith.

And important note: Luke never really wanted to kill him. Yes, it crossed his mind, but the moment he popped his lightsaber, he was already ashamed of himself.

[Dr Channard]

What do people that liked the film actually want or expect to happen in 9? I'm curious what does a legit close out of the trilogy look like to you? I mean if you are just taking it film by film and enjoying it for what it is that's fine, but it's still the second film in a trilogy and has to eventually connect the plot points in some way, shape, or form. Doesn't it?

Possible SPOILERS, but mostly me being a dick…

I’d guess in 9 we will fiiiiiiinally get to see who and what the knights of ren are and what the hell Rey’s lightsaber force vision with them was all about? Please? Or wait, are they supposed to have become the royal guard in the throne room? The ancient jedi books could probably be key in some way. Maybe Rey is using them to train young jedi? Likely some more tortuous emotional relationship between Rey and Ben unfolds because of their ongoing mindmeld. Why was Kylo saying prayers to Darth Vader’s helmet in TFA? He made it sound like Darth Vader was answering him somehow? Also maybe some deeper explanation on why Luke claims to have gone to ahchto to die and because nobody could find him there--but he inexplicably leaves a map to his exact location in 2 pieces with r2d2 and some guy named Lor San Tekka, for why again? And the now broken lightsaber, that was calling to Rey in TFA and giving her force visions, still don’t understand that bit, maybe it’ll get some context? And most important of all, what happened to c3p0’s red arm?


Anyone else think that mindmeld thing would suck? What if you’re in the middle of taking a dump or masturbating and it just suddenly kicks in, *PA-POW!* and there’s the other person in your business?

[valiantsteed]

@Volband I see your perspective, but I didn't see any regret from Luke for actually training Kylo, only regret for thinking about killing him, which he viewed as being the straw that actually turned him into Kylo, which is why he exiled himself in the first place (we won't get into the map, or the fact he was supposed to be on Ach-to doing other things connected to Jedi lore). Seems to me he got scared, contemplated doing something about it, and went too far with it and by the time he realized that - too late the damage was done. But he was obviously scared there otherwise he doesnt ignite that saber in the first place. If he wasn't scared enough there - what would him actually being scared enough look like? Actually going through with it? That wouldn't make sense at all given his arc.

And the other part of that is moot since he does end up "training" Rey any way, so he clearly wasn't scared enough this time either then?
@Dr Channard I think we are meant to assume that the knights of ren were simply other students who Kylo recruits to burn the temple down and leave with him. Where they ended up after the fact is bizarre since Kylo seems to be on his own. But then again they are decked out in gear so where did that come from - the timelines are unclear. Does Kylo burn the temple that night after fighting back against Luke's lit saber, OR does he come back later with his crew to finish the slaughter? Maybe does both?

It's a story thread that was obviously JJ's but he will have a hard time picking it up back now since there is no mystery between what happened with Luke and Kylo, and Snoke, the other person to reference them is dead, so I'm not sure why he would even have reason to revisit it to advance the story - outside of him just wanting to do it. But maybe there is a way to make that relevant.

And having Maz explain where she got the saber and how she knew how to pass it on to Rey would at least make her storyline much more useful than it was in TLJ, that's for sure.

As far as the mind melding, since Snoke was orchestrating that I am very curious to see if they just leave that assumed as Kylo/Rey figured out how to do it on their own, or if it is still someone else (Snoke or otherwise) continuing to make it happen, or if JJ just leaves it alone as a plot hole.

[Dr Channard]

@Volband I see your perspective, but I didn't see any regret from Luke for actually training Kylo, only regret for thinking about killing him, which he viewed as being the straw that actually turned him into Kylo, which is why he exiled himself in the first place (we won't get into the map, or the fact he was supposed to be on Ach-to doing other things connected to Jedi lore).

The more I think about Luke’s character as portrayed in TLJ the more weird he feels, like creepy weird. Sneaking in at night and hovering over people while they sleep? That scene with Ben in bed and Luke leering at him, later he does something similar to Rey, it was creepy shit. Luke needed some counseling or something for that.

Seems to me he got scared, contemplated doing something about it, and went too far with it and by the time he realized that - too late the damage was done. But he was obviously scared there otherwise he doesnt ignite that saber in the first place. If he wasn't scared enough there - what would him actually being scared enough look like? Actually going through with it? That wouldn't make sense at all given his arc.

And yeah, I don’t buy that Luke would have been scared by a kid in a bed. In ROTJ Luke stood full of resolve and conviction in front of Palpatine and Vader, two of the most powerful and ruthless Sith Lords the galaxy had ever seen. Luke stood proud to be a jedi with such unshakable resolve that he tossed his light saber aside refusing to strike either of them dead in fear or hate. He put his own life in harms way against the rage of Palpatine in a bid to redeem his father.

How did his character go from that, to creeping on kids and contemplating killing them because they have dark potential?

[Jinsai]

And yeah, I don’t buy that Luke would have been scared by a kid in a bed. In ROTJ Luke stood full of resolve and conviction in front of Palpatine and Vader, two of the most powerful and ruthless Sith Lords the galaxy had ever seen. Luke stood proud to be a jedi with such unshakable resolve that he tossed his light saber aside refusing to strike either of them dead in fear or hate. He put his own life in harms way against he rage of Palpatine in a bid to redeem his father.

How did his character go from that, to creeping on kids and contemplating killing them because they have dark potential?

Well, maybe he viewed the fact that the kid had dark potential as being something that he helped foster. In the case where he faced down the emperor and Vader, he was hoping to turn his father to save him and himself... in this case, he might have perceived that he was creating Vader pt 2.

I mean, I'm not entirely defending the final Luke arc, because it's the weakest part of the new movie to me. If anything, the way they've been killing these iconic characters in these new movies has been seriously disappointing.

[Dr Channard]

...If anything, the way they've been killing these iconic characters in these new movies has been seriously disappointing.

Yeah man, I can get behind that. It’s like we learned in Indiana Jones, if you aren’t the high priest you probably shouldn’t be screwing around with the holy ark. Because when you do, shit seems to go down like this …

[GulDukat]

Well, maybe he viewed the fact that the kid had dark potential as being something that he helped foster. In the case where he faced down the emperor and Vader, he was hoping to turn his father to save him and himself... in this case, he might have perceived that he was creating Vader pt 2.

I mean, I'm not entirely defending the final Luke arc, because it's the weakest part of the new movie to me. If anything, the way they've been killing these iconic characters in these new movies has been seriously disappointing.

I felt that Luke and Han died in a meaningful way that helped move the narrative along, their part in the story ended while Ray/Poe/Fin's is just beginning. It's not like they just had a bridge fall on them in a desert.