What the fuck?Originally Posted by mfte
Behold the morning star
What the fuck?
Active Member
In this thread? Because I read most of the comments, and I don't recall it right now. The PC army mostly fights with facepalms here, but after reading that garbage article I kinda understand why, as people who type those mental gymnastics out, look rather... vulnerable to common sense.
It's almost like how the Force is explained in TLJ: it needs balance. For everyone hating characters based on their gender or race, there has to be an equal amount of people who put this movie on a shield, and would say the same things ("Rose is like, totes the best character I've ever seen in cinema") without even seeing the movie. Did you read the last, I don't know, 7 or so pages in this thread? Have you seen anyone write something like "Rose/Holdo/Leia/Rey was amazing, I really liked them and their arc. One thing that might've been a little bad/dumb/inconsistent/unpolished was [...]" ? I save you the time of re-reading all the posts: no, you have not. They are perfect. I said perfect.
It's funny in a bitter way, that the biggest adversary for these movies with a modern approach are their very own apologists. Compare these movies with learning how to ride a bike. I think most of us had our fair share of accidents. I know I got cocky to the point where I started going as fast as i could, until my leg slipped off, into the wheel it went, and I fell like a piece of wood. Being buried under a bike and in agony is an amazing opportunity to reevaluate things. That's how you learn, that's how you adjust, that's how you get better. It's true for basically everything in life. But imagine falling with your bike, and being cheered on by people: "Amazing! You are doing just great!" "You are like Lance Armstrong, but without the steroids!" "I'm not exaggerating, when I say this: you are not only the best biker I've ever seen, but you are also a wonderful person." Why would you change anything if you have a bunch of people blindly praising anything you do, because you areone of their poster child?
And the biker example is not even that good, because at least you hurt yourself during accidents, so you are still kinda inclined to aim for being better, but when your movie reaps in the $$$ and such a mundane and unoriginal character like Rose can be called (unironically, may I add) one of the best characters in any movie, then you just found the recipe for laziness. Why would you bother with writing an actual character and plot-line, when you can just "cast a Rose" and get away with everything?
Also, have you seen anyone successfully reason with these people? Like, ever? I've seen plenty of arguments for and against Snoke's death, Luke's death, Luke's exile, so basically stuff that doesn't really involves an agenda. But whenever it's about Rose and Holdo being bags of bricks, all you hear is crickets chirping. They are just amazing because they are amazing, that's all you hear. There are Walter Whites, Nucky Thmpsons and Kim Wexlers, who can get away with such. But you don't hear much about Kim Wexler (from Better Call Saul), do you? She is wildly recognized as one of the most real and well-written characters. She has flaws and strenghts (aka she's a human being) and she is a very delicate representation of the struggles of being a woman in a highly-contested and male-dominated area such as a career in law.
How many articles do you think Melissa Hillman wrote about Kim Wexler? Get ready for a surprise: zero. Her only goal is to be upset, so she has to ignore the Kim Wexlers. Everyone likes Kim Wexler. Men, women, possibly aliens. She is a real success story in the showbiz'. So fuck her. What about Rose? A shallow, boring and uninspired figure, who is under some heavy-crossfire. Well duh, she is obviously the epitome of female representation in Hollywood (meanwhile Jennifer Jason Leigh is crying in a corner), because she is nice, and girls are nice, and oh my god, did I tell you how amazing she is?
All in all I have no idea if you are a sexist, racist bigot or not, but I'm fairly convinced that being dissatisfied with Rose's character and the way she was written would actually imply the opposite.
Behold the morning star
No not here, at least until now.
Active Member
Well, then being called anything on the internet is... not as surprising, is it? I think portraying everyone who really liked TLJ as ignorant or over-triggered is similar to wash up everyone who had some major dislikes with the movies with "haters" and "dumb petiotionists" or something.
To be fair, I have read many-many opinions, where they overally liked TLJ (like (8-9/10) but could admit to some of its glaring flaws, so it's not like it is not widely accepted that both Rose and her subplot are suboptimal.
Active Member
I don't know. There always are idiots who "hate" on a movie, band, artist for bullshit reasons such as those cited in this article. But I'm a dude and I'd "hate" or "denounce" (the use of that words [instead of, say, "criticism"] in the article alone is telling) that film for plotholes, silliness, script, story, implausibility and stuff...
So to wash away those (fair) criticisms with a sweeping "they're just sexist and it's only about gender" seems like an easy way for TLJ fans to render any criticism towards the movie as invalid in their world. And that's kinda stupid, too.
Throbbing Member
But dude, read the article! You don't like the film so the problems are internalized sexist narrative tropes. It's not like Leia's space walk is just a shitty idea with bad visuals, no, you just can't accept the fact that it's a female using the force.
Oh, and by the way ... I don't want to nitpick but one thing came to my mind:
I really like Rey's and Kylo's arc in TLJ, but c'mon. Rey is too powerful. The article tries to make the point that Luke also had no training and was "able to stand against Vader for a lengthy lightsaber battle before escaping".
Wat? Luke got his fucking ass kicked. He didn't stand a chance and consequently lost his hand. That was the whole point Yoda was trying to make. And that's not remotely close to the failure Rey's been facing. Oh, and when it comes to using the force, Luke also didn't manage to pull the X-Wing out of the swamp on Dagobah.
Again, I like Rey and I'm not hating on this. But it's just crazy to compare her with Luke (who's at least the son of the most powerful Jedi/Sith so it makes sense why he's strong with the force).
Last edited by niggo; 01-07-2018 at 06:59 AM.
Active Member
Anywho, looking forward to getting the blu-ray in March.
http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/0...-release-date/
House Always Wins
Can't wait.
I really want the poster from this week for AMC's 4 exclusive poster series (I went the first week and got the Luke/Rey variant). Might have to go cruising eBay for it.
Throbbing Member
I know I’m looking forward to it. Certainly is my favorite Star Wars film after RotJ.
Active Member
just watched my favorite post original is rogue one biggest flaw needing a super weapon.
-Louie
Administrator
That poster is fucking awesome. Also, I'm gonna die if the movie comes out in March on video because I'm dying to watch it again.
House Always Wins
I love them.
This is the one I got the weekend I went:
This was week two:
This was the third week:
Administrator
Got that one too! I'm trying to remember who did a vinyl release for TFA with this artist but I'm hoping they do that again with the TLJ soundtrack.
House Always Wins
I didn't get a poster when The Force Awakens came out since I seen it opening night and they didn't offer it.
Same!
I know! I'm too late to the party as I want one of them (Phasma mainly, or the Finn/Ren one) but they sell for upwards of $200.00. Fuck that!
RA-MEN ROPPAI
Dan Mumford is an amazing artist whose style transcends genre.
EDIT: I Am Shark did the vinyl. There were 4 variants: Poe, Rey, Finn, and Phasma.
Last edited by Jon; 01-07-2018 at 08:12 PM.
Throbbing Member
Alright, so what did people understand the Snoke guards clad in red to be? If they were just people shouldn’t Kylo and Rey have been able to make quick work of them with some simple force abilities? Or were the guards also supposed to be force users who could sense and defend against force attacks?
House Always Wins
Ever since seeing the film, I've heavily read and watched as much as I could about the Elite Praetorian Guard.
Essentially, they are the First Order's homage to Emperor Palpatine's Crimson Guard. They serve as Snoke's bodyguards first and foremost. Out of movie and fictional talk, the Crimson Guard were a favorite and (I forgot who it was specifically) the filmmakers wanted to showcase how cunning bodyguards to the Leader could be. Unlike their inspirational successors, Praetorian Guards each received a specific weapon and different helmet design for unique identification. There was a scene in mind for showing how adept at fighting they could be. That is the scene we got in the film. For non force sensitive characters, they did put up quite a good fight.
Administrator
They were amazing and terrifying. I think I got too used to seeing the clean lightsaber fights in the prequels because when this fight happened, I was terrified. They moved with purpose and had a counter for everything. It didn't even seem like an indirect lightsaber strike did anything to their armor and that it took a direct impaling move to damage and/or kill them. They were amazing and I'm really hoping we get a book or comic series out of them.
Unintelligible Whispering
Extremely effective ways to sell a single toy mold several times over with minor physical variations and different accessories.
I'm going to call them Starscream, Thundercracker, Skywarp, Ramjet, Dirge, Thrust, Sunstorm and Acid Storm.
Administrator
Raphael, Donatello, Michelangelo, Leonardo, Tokka, Razar, Bebop & Rocksteady.
Throbbing Member
Haha, pretty funny. You’re probably right in real world context, but I was asking about in-universe context. It struck me as odd that Kylo had just used a simple force trick to kill Snoke, but then immediately after he almost got choked-out by the guard. Wasn’t sure what the deal with those guards was and how they kept up with Kylo and Rey in a fight. At the movie this image kept playing in my mind as to what should have happened,
In any event, they looked cool and it was an entertaining fight scene.
RA-MEN ROPPAI
It's been brought up already, but the Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Visual Dictionary is worth the ~$15. Here's a quote:
"The layered armor of the Praetorian Guard is a high-tech onion-skin of laminate, impregnated with conductive wirepaths that, once powered, create an intense local magnetic field. Once this energy-intensive field activates, the powered plates can deflect blaster fire. Even a lightsaber will glance off, though a directed thrust will penetrate the shell."
The Praetorian Guard's fighting style is comprised of Teras Kasi, Bakuuni Hand, (unarmed) Enchani, and Nar Kanji. Without knowing anything specific about the other styles, I know that Teras Kasi was developed to counter/fight Jedi.
Active Member
Their armor reminded me of Dracula's in Bram Stoker's Dracula for some reason...
RA-MEN ROPPAI
I'm assuming that red leather made an impression on you, too?
It looks like they used RIS and Mandalorian armor as a base, then took elements from other suits to make a new one. There are quite a few tidbits (in this film) to appease Old Republic and Galaxies fans.
Active Member
It's a good thing to establish that just because you have a lightsaber and versed in the Force, you can't automatically chop everyone who doesn't have these things. We can still have awesome fights like this (coughs Knights of Ren coughs), while elevating the actual lightsaber duels or battles even higher.
24.24.2.2866
I'm still wondering why the Knights of Ren weren't even mentioned in the movie like at all, are they all dead? is it in the past?
We know Kylo Ren is the master or leader of them, were they all once pupils of Luke as well? I know that's the general theory but you'd think they'd be somewhat relevant in the explanation of what happened during Ben's turn.
Active Member
Most likely, as Luke said himself that Kylo left with some other pupils. And why weren't they in TLJ?
- Rian, I read your script, but some pages must be missing.
- No, it's all there.
- But what about the Knights of Ren?
- The who?
- Kylo Ren's special group, most likely ex-Jedi. They also appeared in Rey's vision. You know, dark robes, masks, weapons. It was very ominous.
- Where did they appear exactly?
- In The Force Awakens.
- Aaaah, I heard about that movie! Maybe I should check it out, but right now I'm too busy admiring myself in the mirror.
I am 800% sure that J.J. will bring them back. Not only they were his creations plus obviously important to the story, but the lack of threads for him to pick up for Ep IX means that he doesn't have the luxury of deciding which characters he wants to include. Sadly, J.J. is a visionary, but one who can't finish any good idea on his own. That means the Knights of Ren will be used for an epic battle scene with the Jedi, and that's it. They could have been included in TLJ, showing how and why Luke's other pupils abandoned him, because if he was such a great Jedi master that he only screwed up with Ben, then it makes no sense why others would leave him.
But then again, the movie's time was probably better spent on the importance of teaching us not to keep free animals enclosed for our own entertainment. Changed my life to be honest.
she/her/hers
everyone complaining about rian johnson's style and acting like JJ is going to come "fix" everything is cracking me up.
jj abrams is like the king of un-fulfilled setups. isn't that what the majority of Lost ended up being? a bunch of threads that got set up and never knocked down? i honestly doubt he had a direction in mind for many of the things that were included in episode VII.
Active Member
I don't think anyone can fix this, and even though hope dies last, I am fairly certain that IX will be a breathtaking cinema experience but with all the clichés you can imagine.
J.J.'s strength is his vision. He creates amazing stories, and leaves them to actual writers to finish it up. I agree, it sounds like the easiest job on the planet, but it's hardly luck that his name can be associated to many now cult shows. You don't just happen to be very lucky so many times.
As for Lost, he had nothing to do with the ending. He was there for the first half of the first season and then he left; you can hardly blame him if you were dissatiasfied with the ending. Maybe ha gave too many unexplainable hooks for the writers, but he also gave them enough material to write, produce and direct one of the most amazing TV episodes: The Constant.
Rian might very well be a better director, than J.J., but he (and Disney) still dropped the ball with TLJ.
Disney's SW track record so far:
- A New Hope 2
- The reshooting controversy around Rogue One
- A movie that's biggest strength is the people who say it's not that bad
- Had to find a new director for the Solo movie, of which no one gives a fuck about. Not even Disney wants it anymore.
More and more evidence shows that this forced release schedule for the SW movies are taking its toll on their quality. Then again, why would we expect more from them, when even the fanboy apologists resort to the "but but buttttt it made a lot of money!!! nothing bad ever made lot of money!!! lot of money is good!!"
Stubby Member
As much as I fundamentally disagree with everything you feel about this film, you are 100% correct here. Part of the systemic problem here was JJ's cowardice and laziness in TFA. He set up the map, the knights, snoke - but never had to do any heavy lifting to establish them. It's like Malcolm's rant in Jurassic Park about discipline to attain it and a lack of responsibility. He allowed strong visuals, safe aesthetics, and talented young actors to do that work for him. And then expected the people on 8 and 9 to make his movie look like an even better well plotted work of art, which is completely unfair, but at the same time, exactly what everyone knowingly signed up for.
And it seemed like it was going to work out fine, JJ was going to be lauded for not royally fucking things up, and a heavy hitter in character expose like Rian Johnson was going to come in and clean up the vision and tell the real story once we got past the fluffy beginnings. I'll take that formula just fine thank you.
Except.... that's not what happened. Rian turned around and said that vision was a mess (or something?), and I'm going rogue. Which you almost have to applaude having the balls to do even though its so disrespectful, and its clear regardless of whatever loose plan Kennedy and co may have had in place, they let him relatively do just that. It's an attitude you could do a lot worse than for its ambition, its just unfortunate that it didn't work out. It was a risk I'd bet on again though to be honest (in hindsight - not for another round now though), as I felt good about it despite being scared at the time, and I could have never imagine getting the movie we eventually got. Sometimes that happens when you take risks. C'est la vie.
I'd like to believe had Rian been able to start the trilogy without any of JJ's baggage maybe things would have been different, but I am hard pressed to convince myself of that since so many of his choices were just wrong (again, to me). Either way, now we are left with two pieces that do not interconnect much at all, so the only hope is that JJ is able to salvage some sort of connection to what may have been his original vision for how he expected some of the plot points to be carried out, to give the trilogy some semblance of cohesive structure. It's a mystery box, again, and it will likely end up how its ended up enough times in the past, which is in blue balled disappointment, but there isn't really an alternative?
Look there are some dickheads that want to hate TLJ for a variety of stupid reasons, but there are also a lot of people like me who really want to love the movie. I've already bought it on blu ray so I can give it more chances to come around on. I really, really don't want to dislike it as much as I do. And I certainly don't love the idea of jerking JJ off while trashing the vastly better filmmaker in Johnson. So just because I liked TFA better than TLJ doesn't mean JJ gets a pass or I excuse the safety of his style. Say what you will about Rian's choices, as bad as some were, but at least he had the guts to make them.
Any way just imagine for a second, as impossible as it may be - that you did not like TLJ, for whatever reason. What other hope do you actually have other than to believe JJ will finally, for once, show an ability to get his hands dirty and close?
For those still planning to hang "around", that's the only hope we have left, sad as it is.
Posting Permissions
