Marilyn Manson

[Prettybrokenspiral]

Manson at his peak was EASILY better than NIN at their peak. Bar none.

Manson was a fucking unstoppable force of nature and everyone listened. It was phenomenal and I’m so glad I was able to live at the same time as that period.

Manson is a wet fart now though.

Better than Nails at his peak? lol you can’t be serious..

Who was behind the boards calling the shots when Manson was at his peak? Hell, who discovered Manson?

As great as it is in its own right, Holywood is really just a re-make of ACSS, right down to its Beautiful People 2 first single. Trent wasn’t around for that one, but he was heavily involved in ACSS, Manson’s most revered and most popular album..

But Manson easily better than Nails at his peak? Get real. Manson was essentially just a part of the Nails machine at their peak..

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

ACSS is a Nine Inch Nails album with Manson on vocals......

[Prettybrokenspiral]

I’ll give Manson credit: even without Trent, he’s still an interesting life force. You can’t just be some hack Alice Cooper knock-off and come up with greatness like TGAOG, Born Villain or Heaven Upside Down. But as terrific as those albums are, they are just retreading past album blueprints of his first four albums..

High End of Low is an altogether different matter. Even if it sounds like a sibling of ACSS and Holywood, it’s still more interesting than either of those albums. There’s just so much going on, and it veers around creatively from one song to the next at a ridiculous pace, while still sounding quintessentially Manson. It’s like that Cure record from 2004 that encompassed every facet of their sound up to that point, while still sounding definitively only like The Cure..

[OSPF]

Mechanical Animals is fucking great though, right?

We're all in agreement about that.

Until I realized every song is just the first minute litterally repeated four or five times.

[Lerxto]

I do miss the days when I saw these on TV.

[AndItKeepsRepeating]

Just curious if I'm the only one who thinks Holywood is his best album?

It's hard to pick one among the trilogy but I always lean Holywood.

[implanted_microchip]

I miss the EPs of the 90s a lot. Getting an odds and ends remix album like Smells Like Children or the blend of great live renditions and remixes of songs like Remix & Repent allowed for a lot of freedom and looser approaches that a main album couldn’t allow. The acoustic Man That You Fear destroys the studio take. A couple of his records since did that on their deluxe editions — the acoustic stuff from High End of Low made me love those songs way more, and the same is true of Pale Emperor. Manson works best when he has a clear target/subject or when he’s free to space out and mess around. I’ve grown to like a handful of songs from Heaven Upside Down, and they’re all ones that feel more loose and less caught up in sounding like “a Marilyn Manson song” — the expansive, Bauhaus-heavy Saturnalia or the kitschy, goofy Kill4Me. Eat Me, Drink Me for its flaws has a consistent musical approach and set of themes that I enjoy a lot, his heart is clearly in it. Golden Age of Grotesque could have been a great concept album but gets lost in its own identity and repeats itself way too often. There was some interview where he even admitted he was less interested in music and more into paintings at that time and it shows.

I don’t think he couldn’t do something great again, but I don’t think it’s on the horizon. I’d love nothing more than to be wrong and get a great album from him and a tour that supports it well without relying on old covers and greatest hits to pad out a one hour set, but he’s given me no reason to expect that recently. I often feel like, looking at interviews from that time, he felt very proud of Eat Me, Drink Me, and the lackluster response killed a lot of his enthusiasm. Before then he was admittedly considering retiring from music and wanting to branch out of the “Marilyn Manson” cage he built for himself.

He quickly after that became an imitation of himself and we got the “I’m such a fucking rockstar, look out everybody!” attitudes of the High End era and it’s never really recovered. He freely admitted he’d not lived up to his own standards for a while when he put Pale Emperor out, and it was his best album in ages, and then he slid right back and was showing up to interviews like Marc Maron’s with bottles of vodka at the ready just to get through the process. When he tanked that interview I knew it was pretty much not going to get much better any time soon without some sort of epiphany or life-changing moment. The thought of an interview like Maron’s podcast getting ahold of early 2000s Manson is thrilling, someone known for digging deep and cutting past the bullshit questions, only to turn into an utter mess when Manson showed up drunk as fuck early at night rambling and bumbling through what should have been an amazing hour. Have his live shows been different from that? Has his music sounded like anything other than him showing up to screech out some typical Manson-y lyrics since? I don’t think so, and I have no reason to be hyped again until he proves me otherwise.

[ManBurning]

Holy Wood gets a ton of love; you're in good company. I place it a lot lower on the list than most people do. I think it's got a lot of bloat on it and that hurts it. I also find it to be a little unnecessarily reiterative of stuff they'd done before; sort of like changing the desktop skin without changing much of the content. That said, I still think it's a great album.

01. Mechanical Animals
02. Antichrist Superstar
03. Portrait of an American Family
04. Holy Wood
05. Eat Me, Drink Me
06. The Pale Emperor
07. The Golden Age of Grotesque
08. The High End of Low
09. Born Villain
10. Heaven Upside Down

The last three records on my list follow numerically in a ranking system, but I think the quality of them is so disparate that they may as well be by a different artist entirely. I wouldn't have even bothered looking at Heaven and Villain if they weren't by Marilyn Manson; I literally dislike every song off of them. High End ​is at least periodically intriguing.

I'll play the ranking game, why not. Been a while. I'm bored.

1. Mechanical Animals
2. ACSS
3. Holy wood
4. The Pale Emperor
5. POAAF
6. The High end of Low
7. Born Villain
8. Golden Age
9. Eat Me, Drink me
10. Heaven Upside Down

I might generally be one of the few people that actually likes The High End of Low for what it's worth. I think I jumped on the hate train and hated it like everyone else when it came out, but that album grew on me over time.

I only ranked "Eat Me" Slightly higher than "Heaven" for the sole purpose that Tim Skold had involvement with making the record. I went back and looked at the tracklisting of the records to help assist in this list, and goddamn I have never seen a worse bunch of tracks in my life grouped together than I saw on "Heaven Upside Down" The first 3/4 of the album is virtually unlistenable.
This may seem like crazy talk, but the only 3 songs worth a damn on the record are the final 3. Blood Honey, Heaven Upside Down, Threats of Romance.

I think quieter/softer songs suit Manson better in his older age than screaming/yelling "fuck you" type up songs.
I wouldn't mind a whole record of mellow tunes at this point in his career.

I'm sad he doesn't dig deeper into his catalog for his live shows. He needs to challenge himself. Learn some deep cuts. I know he won't, it's because he has substance issues, so he just picks the same 10 songs he can slurr his way through, which is sad but man... I think manson's "deep cut" library is fantastic.

A night at the "Manson tour rehearsals" must be a blast. Manson gives the band the top 10 singles and maybe 2 or 3 new songs (depending whatever album he is touring on) and then he leaves to get shitfaced and pass out for the night.

Noteable deep cuts:

"Wrapped in Plastic"
"Deformography"
"Minute of Decay"
"Mister Superstar"
"Mechanical Animals" (song)
"I want to disappear"
"New Model No. 15"
"Coma Black"
"Better of two Evils"
"Vodevil"
"Eat Me, Drink Me" (song)
"Blank and White"
"Wight Spider"
"Slo-Mo-Tion"
"The Gardener"
"Flowers of Evil"
"Children of Cain"

[theimage13]

I started thinking about what my deep cut / "I might actually go see him live if I knew he was playing these songs" list would look like, but then I realized something: a lot of the appeal to the songs that were making the cut were linked to who he was at the time. I could get behind Wrapped in Plastic with a young, "I've got something to prove" Manson and the homemade stage setup. I could get behind Mister Superstar with the well designed rally-style production of the ACSS set. But I just don't think they'd hold any weight being forced through by a guy who's clearly out of shape and most likely out of his mind. I think it would feel like a desperate attempt to relive the glory days than anything else.

(side note: has anyone else received a PM that just says "I'm sorry"? I mean, there's probably more on the inside. But apology accepted.)

[implanted_microchip]

If I got to pick a deep cut from each album for a properly performed live set I’d go with:

Dogma
Cryptorchid
New Model 15
In the Shadow of the Valley of Death
Spade
Eat Me, Drink Me
Into the Fire
Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms
Slave Only Dreams To Be King
Blood Honey

Those mixed in with more common live songs (from his best, like Reflecting God, Great Big White World, Lunchbox etc) done right would be a dream well worth the cost of a ticket.

There are so many great songs from his best eras. ACSS and MA reign but Holy Wood has so many good ones, Portrait is full of classics, even later albums have some gold, but I cannot imagine paying to see him fumble through them right now where he’ll lay down half the show and mumble the rest. I’d pay a mint to see him do songs like Man That You Fear, Dissociative, The Death Song, Evidence, Astonishing Panorama of the End Times and Mechanical Animals properly live. It makes me so sad that someone with such a wealth of wonderful material has become a total self-parody propping up hour long sets with cover songs. Is anyone leaving his shows upset he didn’t slur through Personal Jesus?

[Magnetic]

But I just don't think they'd hold any weight being forced through by a guy who's clearly out of shape and most likely out of his mind. I think it would feel like a desperate attempt to relive the glory days than anything else.

This is why I've been so damn grateful that Trent got cleaned up and still performs at the level he does. He pulls out material from TDS and it feels genuine live.

Back to Manson: unfortunately at this stage, is there reasonable hope he would have the self-awareness to turn things around?

[eversonpoe]

(side note: has anyone else received a PM that just says "I'm sorry"? I mean, there's probably more on the inside. But apology accepted.)

i sure as fuck didn't

[Jon]

Can we please lock this already? Thanks

Hey bud, is there a reason this is the 4th random topic you've followed me to and talked about locking?

That's fine if you don't like me, but try to make it less obvious. Thanks.

[fillow]

Hey bud, is there a reason this is the 4th random topic you've followed me to and talked about locking?

Did no such thing. Examples please.

[WorzelG]

This lockdown is sending everyone so mad they are starting to imagine things

[Prettybrokenspiral]

Oh please. Nobody wants this thread locked, nor does it need to be. Everyone comes here for the train wreck and for the banter, let’s not kid ourselves. Even people that allegedly sold their Manson records off years ago still come in here daily and can’t get enough..

Half of it is the perceived Manson swan dive from grace, and the other half is the gang-mentality criticism. You’d have to be a fool to take any of it all that seriously..

[ManBurning]

Hmm. After contemplation, it seems that, if I'd had my way, I would have winnowed High End down to an EP. But I'd really, really like that EP. Some of the stuff I'd cut from the LP, I'd cut because it's goddamned terrible—"Pretty as a Swastika," "Arma-goddamn-motherfucking-geddon,"& "Unkillable Monster" (the most parodically goth slowdance song I think I've ever heard)—and a whole bunch of it because I think it's boring, tedious, and uninteresting—"Blank & White," "Running to the Edge of the World," "I Want to Kill You Like They Do in the Movies," & "We're From America."

Doing this made me remember how fucking excited I was for this album to come out. I went nuts for a number of the leaked tracks—I was the sickest I'd been in a few years over my spring break in grad school and the day I knew I was getting better, I was blasting what was available while deep cleaning the week-of-bedrest grossness out of my apartment. I was so bummed by the final product and surprised by how...toothless "We're From America" was. Something they'd done, and much better in the past.


"Devour"
"Leave A Scar"
"Four Rusted Horses"
"WOW"
"I Have to Look Up Just to See Hell"
"Into the Fire"
"15"

Doing this also made me remember the video for "Running to the Edge of the World," and how inexcusable that shit was. Sorry the breakup was sad for you, but fuck you, dude. Way to turn into the guy on your first album cover.

You know, after I made my ranking list last night, and how much I said I praised "High End" I had an itch to go listen to it and... it's not as good as I remember. And I think you just hit the nail on the head with your EP suggestion. The songs off "High end" that are good, are really good, but for every awesome song, there is an equally terrible song.

As much as we might have opposite opinions on what might be "Manson's best songs/deep cuts" I think we may very well be in total agreement on what a "High End" EP might look like. Close, but not 100%.
You pretty much mentioned the best tracks on the record for me, aside from "WOW" Cannot stand that song, and it might be runner up with "Pistol Whipped" and "Heart Shaped Glasses" for his worst song of all time!

Either way, funny how you can think something is great in your mind, but when you go back and re-visit it, it is far from anywhere remotely good as you remember.
Despite that, I still don't think I would change it's spot on the rankings list. The songs I like on THEOL, are still much better than the songs on the other records below it.

Also, For what it's worth, I may have only ever seen the "Running to the end of the world" music video once, when it first came out as I totally forgot about how that video was until I recently saw it (unrelated to this conversation), it was related to a few pages back when someone posted the Esme Bianco Testify video, I went to watch it out of curiosity and then that lead me to the ERW video, which I started reading the comments, and someone linked that video in the comments and I was shocked with what I saw. at the time you watch the video back in 2009, or whatever, you think it's a work of art... but when someone comes forward with a domestic abuse story, you see that video in a different light...

I always wondered how I would react to one of my favorite musician's getting called out as a rapist/domestic abuser/etc. Am I able to separate the man from the music? Not gonna lie... watching the testify videos almost makes me want to give up on this man once and for all and never look back. It's like getting into a fight with an old friend and standing your ground and NOT giving in and holding a grudge. I've lost a great friend do to not seeing eye to eye with stuff before and it haunts me to this day that I won't get the friendship back, not because I am not ready to move past it, but the friend is not. He's standing his ground no matter what. On one hand, gotta respect someone like that, someone not willing to mend an old wound. On the other hand, you gotta wonder if it's the other person in the wrong by holding the grudge, and not really growing up for something that was 10 years ago. Anyway... that's babbling extremely off topic now, lol

Funny thing is, I did somehow get roped back into the world of MM. Shame on me or shame on him for hooking me back in? It was 2003. GOAG just came out, and I was going through an "anti-Manson" phase. I started selling off my Manson collection (some things which I regret, like my signed copy of Mechanical Animals signed from the whole band in 2000). I don't know what it was, but I just wasn't into the era anymore. He lost me. I moved onto other things. Then when "Eat Me, Drink me" came out, as much as I hated that record, that's when I kinda/sorted started to get back into him. I was curious what he had done. I didn't buy his shit anymore at that point, but I downloaded it, enjoyed it for what it was, and then I was somehow "back on the Manson train" not a fullfledged fan like I was before, but I started going to his shows again when they rolled through town etc... like I said, it was like seeing an old friend again. Just felt comforting. Like it was a security blanket from my youth. Deep down you know that friend is bad news, and you should stay away, you've created a new life for yourself outside this former friendship, and you know letting this new friend back in is just going to fuck it all up again, but you feel bad for the friend... and I think that's why a lot of us still cling to/follow Manson. We want to move on, but deep down we have some sort of strong bond from him and we hope that he will smarten up (We know he won't).

Oddly enough... I have an actual friendship like this (not metaphorically speaking anymore). Have this friend, from back in my youth that I hung out with, great guy... just went down the wrong path and now he's an alcoholic and in a very bad relationship he can't get out of. I see a lot of comparisons between Manson and this old friend actually. It's really sad. Me and this friend reconnected about a year ago via a phone call (we live in different cities) and you could tell someone was off. I miss the guy, just wish he would get sober and out of his relationship. I last saw him in 2016, and he was out of that relationship, and things were looking good for him, but shortly after leaving town, I learned he was back in this sour relationship and he was worse than ever.

[fishtifer]

MM was my 2nd favorite band next to NIN for the longest time, once I first heard their cover of Down in the Park I was hooked so picking up Smells Like Children and Antichrist Superstar on their release days was pretty awesome. Here is my top 10, I don't know why people hate Born Villian so much - Hey Cruel World, No Reflection, Overneath the Path of Misery, Slo-Mo-Tion and The Flowers of Evil are some of my all time favorite songs of his newer releases. Sure it has some real terrible songs like Pistol Whipped, but I deleted those off my playlist years ago and enjoy my favorites regularly. MM did a very good job with The Pale Emperor but I only liked Deep Six off of it. I'm glad he's working with someone new on the next album, Tyler Bates was starting to make MM by numbers songs - so I'm hoping to get some interesting tracks with Shooter Jennings.

1. Antichrist Superstar
2. Holy Wood
3. Mechanical Animals
4. Golden Age of Grotesque
5. Born Villain
6. Portrait of an American Family
7. The High End of Low
8. Eat Me, Drink Me
9. The Pale Emperor
10. Heaven Upside Down

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

After the disaster that was Born Villain where a middle aged Manson tried to reclaim his ACSS era, I thought Pale Emperor was a huge step in the right direction. More of a mature, blues oriented sound. It looked like this could be his bold new direction but then he followed it up with the shitbomb Heaven Upside Down where once again he tried to be Mr antichrist superstar again....Manson needs to realize its not 1997 anymore. Hes no longer Mr shock rock. Hes no longer going to offend anyone. So when 50 year old Manson tries to offend and be shocking, it comes off boring and embarrassing. He should go back to what he was doing on TPE. Cut down on the schtick and focus on songwriting. Stop trying to be Mr satanic industrial guy again and follow the more mature mid tempo blues song arrangements he was doing on Emperor

[Piko]

He's also gone to the shock well too many times. Now it's just Manson being Manson. Pale Emperor was an interesting change. Considering how much of a Bowie fan he is, and how he always adapted to the industry (as manson himself used to do as well).

I want him to really care and change things up again. He's done it before and succeeded. He could do it again. Instead, he tries to most cash in on ACSS (and fail).

[elevenism]

Jesus, thank you guys for these last few pages.

This is the most entertaining thing I've seen in days, the last few pages of this thread, and I stopped paying attention to MM after smells like children.

Edit: how do you get the secret angry pm from Prettybrokenspiral?

[Prettybrokenspiral]

You thought it was funny? My face still hurts from laughing..

And as far as “secret PMs” go, I sent three and none of them were angry (or secret). Just trying to assuage people who were taking things way too hard over the course of the last few days, or pots calling kettles black..

Hold on, I’ll send you one of your very own since you asked nicely..

[Magnetic]

[tony.parente]

After the disaster that was Born Villain where a middle aged Manson tried to reclaim his ACSS era, I thought Pale Emperor was a huge step in the right direction. More of a mature, blues oriented sound. It looked like this could be his bold new direction but then he followed it up with the shitbomb Heaven Upside Down where once again he tried to be Mr antichrist superstar again....Manson needs to realize its not 1997 anymore. Hes no longer Mr shock rock. Hes no longer going to offend anyone. So when 50 year old Manson tries to offend and be shocking, it comes off boring and embarrassing. He should go back to what he was doing on TPE. Cut down on the schtick and focus on songwriting. Stop trying to be Mr satanic industrial guy again and follow the more mature mid tempo blues song arrangements he was doing on Emperor

Honestly if he’s gonna try and redo another album I wish he’d try the Mechanical Animals era again.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Honestly if he’s gonna try and redo another album I wish he’d try the Mechanical Animals era again.

Billy Corgan is just a phone call away

[bobbie solo]

"perceived"

[Prettybrokenspiral]

you're a fucking bummer

..........

[Erneuert]

Oh please. Nobody wants this thread locked, nor does it need to be. Everyone comes here for the train wreck and for the banter, let’s not kid ourselves. Even people that allegedly sold their Manson records off years ago still come in here daily and can’t get enough..

Half of it is the perceived Manson swan dive from grace, and the other half is the gang-mentality criticism. You’d have to be a fool to take any of it all that seriously..

It’s true. The only Manson song I really know is the Sweet Dreams cover, I just visit this thread for the drama.

[voidnz]

I'll give ranking a go, though I find the best three albums are hard to rank as it depends on my mood.

1. Holywood - my first Manson album and when I became a fan so I guess it has a special soft spot.
2. Antichrist Superstar
3. Mechanical Animals
4. The Golden Age of Grotesque
5. Portrait of an American Family
6. The Pale Emperor
7. Eat Me, Drink Me
8. Heaven Upside Down
9. Born Villain
10. The High End of Low

I'm not counting Smells Like Children

Best deep cuts off each album:
Cake and Sodomy
Dried up, Tied and Dead to the World
Disassociative
Coma Black/Target Audience
The Bright Young Things
Evidence
Into The Fire
Children of Cain
Killing Strangers
Blood Honey

Maybe some aren't all that deep?

[bobbie solo]

Imagine he whipped this deep cut out & could actually nail it?