Twiggys abuse/rape allegations

[khris]

Did anyone see the photos that Marilyn Manson posted before they were removed?
https://www.alternativenation.net/ma...courtney-love/


Edit:

Oh nevermind, I did a google search of the link and viewed the cached version of the post. Tada!

[Haysey_Draws]

This whole thing is just fucking awful! Nobody should ever be raped, let alone have to 'deal' with it for so long.

What makes it worse is these are our musical heroes being revealed to be demons. We've spent years following them and enjoying what they make, only to then have to face the grim reality that they've done awful things.

The lesson it seems is, don't have heroes...and don't rape people for fucks sake!

[tremolo]

This whole thing is just fucking awful! Nobody should ever be raped, let alone have to 'deal' with it for so long.

What makes it worse is these are our musical heroes being revealed to be demons. We've spent years following them and enjoying what they make, only to then have to face the grim reality that they've done awful things.

The lesson it seems is, don't have heroes...and don't rape people for fucks sake!

I think it’s important to separate the art from the artist/person, cause it’s their art that we fall in love with in the first place and then we tend to create an idea of the person based on just ideas and who knows what, cause we don’t really know them AT ALL, even if we get to shake their hands, we don’t know anything about them, their demons, what they’re capable of, the horrible things they’ve done, etc.

It’s ok to have heroes, but it’s important not to build an idea around them based on creations of our own minds.

What Twiggy allegedly did is awful and I can’t really understand how anyone can do such a horrible thing and ruin someone else’s life like that. How the music he created inspired a lot of kids to get over their own demons and issues is a completely different story.

[theimage13]

I think it’s important to separate the art from the artist/person...How the music he created inspired a lot of kids to get over their own demons and issues is a completely different story.

I don't know if I've really found a firm stance on this, to be honest. But right now, the way I see it - and I admit that this is not a 100% apples-to-apples comparison - is that this is similar to a Machiavelli-esque ends justifying the means sort of philosophy. Again, I know it's not a completely solid comparison (if committing despicable acts are what inspired the art to be created, it would be a closer analogy).

But that said, I feel that to validate the art is to validate the artist. If JK Rowling suddenly became a radical terrorist, would you read Harry Potter to your kids? Would you tell your children "it doesn't matter that she did terrible, terrible things, because she wrote great stories"? Yes, that's a far-fetched example. But it's the same principal - you're saying that a person's felonious and disgusting deeds can be ignored because they did something else that helped you through a bad time yourself.

Personally, I don't think I'm comfortable with that. I don't think that the artist and the art are "completely different stories" as you put it.

And just for context, Manson's albums helped me in the 90s. I was a clean and non-violent person, but I was also awkward as fuck and didn't fit the religious mold that was expected of me (among other things), and so those albums and the theatrics on stage made me feel less alone. So this isn't coming from someone who's inherently anti-MM or anything like that.

[tremolo]

I don't know if I've really found a firm stance on this, to be honest. But right now, the way I see it - and I admit that this is not a 100% apples-to-apples comparison - is that this is similar to a Machiavelli-esque ends justifying the means sort of philosophy. Again, I know it's not a completely solid comparison (if committing despicable acts are what inspired the art to be created, it would be a closer analogy).

But that said, I feel that to validate the art is to validate the artist. If JK Rowling suddenly became a radical terrorist, would you read Harry Potter to your kids? Would you tell your children "it doesn't matter that she did terrible, terrible things, because she wrote great stories"? Yes, that's a far-fetched example. But it's the same principal - you're saying that a person's felonious and disgusting deeds can be ignored because they did something else that helped you through a bad time yourself.

Personally, I don't think I'm comfortable with that. I don't think that the artist and the art are "completely different stories" as you put it.

And just for context, Manson's albums helped me in the 90s. I was a clean and non-violent person, but I was also awkward as fuck and didn't fit the religious mold that was expected of me (among other things), and so those albums and the theatrics on stage made me feel less alone. So this isn't coming from someone who's inherently anti-MM or anything like that.

I know what you mean, it’s really hard to find where you draw the line.

I’ve always had an inclination towards tortured artists, or I guess it’s more accurate to say “art created by tortured artists.”

As an example, I love Hole, mostly because of the lyrics and the sound of their first 2 albums. But lyrics above all. I love Courtney Love’s writing style, the imagery she uses, I just find it phenomenal and it really resonates with me in a way that is hard to explain. But I don’t think I’d like to be her friend, lover, or hang out with her, because I just don’t agree with many of the things she has done. But then again, I think her behaviour is just another expression of her inner demons, just like her lyrics. I do have sympathy for her though. Having read some stuff about her childhood and upbringing makes it pretty clear why she ended up doing all the things she did, including her art.


In the case of Twiggy, I don’t care much. I have enjoyed his music, but I’ve never been a big Manson or Twiggy fan, so this doesn’t come as a big shock.

I despise what Hitler did, but I find his drawings are amazing.

I love Jimmi Hendrix, and his music really inspired me. That doesn’t mean I support the fact he used to hit women.

And we can go on with many examples like these. It all comes down to where each one of us draws the line, and I think that should be respected by everybody else.

It would be different if those horrible actions (rape, abuse, terrorism, etc) were the art in itself. Then it would be easier to make that judgement call.


In the Harry Potter example, I wouldn’t give 2 fucks, to be honest. Unless her books were filled with references that made terrorism seem good or not so bad. Also it would be different if I was a victim of her terrorist actions (directly or indirectly to a certain degree).


I’ve come to understand that we all do fucked up shit, and the fact that someone is capable of creating something beautiful doesn’t mean they’re not capable of doing something awful. I’m sure that if I met any of my music heroes and got to know him closely and in depth, and knew all the stuff that they think, I would find something that would make me cringe, or completely disagree with them from a values point of view.

It’s a big grey area.

[playwithfire]

I despise what Hitler did, but I find his drawings are amazing.

dude was like the thomas kinkade of genocide

[Harry Seaward]

I don't know if I've really found a firm stance on this, to be honest. But right now, the way I see it - and I admit that this is not a 100% apples-to-apples comparison - is that this is similar to a Machiavelli-esque ends justifying the means sort of philosophy. Again, I know it's not a completely solid comparison (if committing despicable acts are what inspired the art to be created, it would be a closer analogy).

But that said, I feel that to validate the art is to validate the artist. If JK Rowling suddenly became a radical terrorist, would you read Harry Potter to your kids? Would you tell your children "it doesn't matter that she did terrible, terrible things, because she wrote great stories"? Yes, that's a far-fetched example. But it's the same principal - you're saying that a person's felonious and disgusting deeds can be ignored because they did something else that helped you through a bad time yourself.

Personally, I don't think I'm comfortable with that. I don't think that the artist and the art are "completely different stories" as you put it.

And just for context, Manson's albums helped me in the 90s. I was a clean and non-violent person, but I was also awkward as fuck and didn't fit the religious mold that was expected of me (among other things), and so those albums and the theatrics on stage made me feel less alone. So this isn't coming from someone who's inherently anti-MM or anything like that.

Do you like David Bowie, Led Zeppelin, or the Beatles? Elvis? Mick Jagger? Iggy Pop? Aerosmith?

[icklekitty]

It’s interesting to see people struggle with the realisation that life isn’t black and white, for sure.

[Amaro]

Let the record show I never have been a Jeordie “fan”. If you'd asked me about him before this, I'd have said he is an interesting looking individual (no disrespect). Cool bass tone. Even if this was Trent, well I don't "know" Trent. That'd come as a shock, but not a SHOCK.

I said what I said in this thread early on about “sides” in this situation because, while I am a very sensitive and very sympathetic individual (and never dismissed Jessicka’s claims), I have no business investing myself. Letting emotion get the best of me in any capacity usually has ended with me hurt or in some dirt, so I try to refrain. I’ve worked in a setting where I’ve had to come face to face with individuals who’ve been convicted of basically the same terrible things Jeordie is accused of, and then some. I'm NOT indifferent about rape. It's awful, and that's from only trying to imagine. I've been used before, but not anywhere close to something even like that.

For me, at this point, it is enough to think of Jeordie as someone who's accused of rape and abuse (and other stuff that is suggestively true), and so far has not acknowledged or denied these allegations, which, after enough time that has passed, yes--I find this does not look good on him at all.

Jessicka's voice has been heard, as it should be. I absolutely support her in going public, just as I would anyone else who is bearing such a weight.

[Sarah K]

My friend who once upon a rime was a music journalist and spent a lot of time interviewing bands says Twiggy took his dick out when she was interviewing them. Says she just ignored him and asked another question.

[Conan The Barbarian]

My friend who once upon a rime was a music journalist and spent a lot of time interviewing bands says Twiggy took his dick out when she was interviewing them. Says she just ignored him and asked another question.

But twiggy always took out his dick. That’s not really a shocker.

[Sarah K]

But twiggy always took out his dick. That’s not really a shocker.

Oh, wow. I had no idea. So dude has had no concept of consent and has displayed completely inappropriate behavior and boundaries for decades and people are still "shocked" by this account and think she is lying?

Impressive mental gymnastics.

What a fucking shit person.

[sweeterthan]

Oh, wow. I had no idea. So dude has had no concept of consent and has displayed completely inappropriate behavior and boundaries for decades and people are still "shocked" by this account and think she is lying?

Impressive mental gymnastics.

What a fucking shit person.

I knew about his inappropriate behavior. People have talked about it online for years now. I also used to think this was just rock and roll dude behavior. In the past, I accepted it in so many ways so many times. Ugh.

[botley]

White's carefully-worded statement. Emphasis mine:

"I have only recently been made aware of these allegations from over 20 years ago," White said in a statement. "I do not condone non-consensual sex of any kind."

"I will be taking some time to spend with my family and focus on maintaining my several years of sobriety," White continued in his statement. "If I have caused anyone pain I apologize and truly regret it."

There it is, the non-apology apology and non-admission admittal in PR doublespeak for all to see. This sounds like it was written by Marilyn Manson's lawyers, not by Jeordie himself.

[GulDukat]

White's carefully-worded statement. Emphasis mine:


There it is, the non-apology apology and non-admission admittal in PR doublespeak for all to see. This sounds like it was written by Marilyn Manson's lawyers, not by Jeordie himself.

I think Twiggy's responce pretty much confirms that it happened, all of it. At least now I can enjoy the show when it comes to Boston, with White gone.

[renton44]

White's carefully-worded statement. Emphasis mine:


There it is, the non-apology apology and non-admission admittal in PR doublespeak for all to see. This sounds like it was written by Marilyn Manson's lawyers, not by Jeordie himself.

It certainly seems to be a lawyer advised statement but what do we really expect? He can't really come out and call her a liar or defend himself too much. If he does that, and I know this sounds strange, but public opinion on him would get even worse. Some will say he is victim shaming and others will say he is in denial, all the while escalating nastiness between his fans and hers. Comments on his wife's twitter account have been BRUTAL over the last few days, and she has nothing to do with this. So, I think that is what he means about being with his family, she has become a causality in this. That said, I think this has given us a lot to talk about.

I think his statement says quite a bit. It seems to me he is basically admitting that when he wasn't sober he really had no true recollection of what he did or didn't do. It is why I think he mentions his sobriety. You know "Fuck your couch Charlie Murphy!" Not that he isn't responsible for his actions, but it is quite possible that most of those years are a drug haze to him. There is a pretty decent chance he doesn't remember much of it, maybe fragments. But he is basically also admitting that is not an excuse.

Ultimately, I think he knows he did some really questionable shit back in the day and that his lack of sobriety played a giant role in it. This is the man that snorted sea monkeys at one point. He did mention his sobriety anniversary on twitter/facebook over the last 5 or 6 years or so (March sometime I think) and was proud of the positive changes it had for him. I think he knew this day was going to come at some point, and has chosen not to fight it, deny it, or excuse it because he could see himself having done these things and that he is aware he has/had a temper. As Jessicka said in her own post, there were two Jeordie Whites.

Anyway, I am NOT a rape apologist and I do think he did it. But I think drug use played a very large role in bringing out the worst aspects of this person. It isn't an excuse but it seems to be a cause. People change, and the Jeordie White of the last 10 years or so is not the same guy from 20 years ago, but the man today is paying for the actions of his past life so to speak.

[thevoid99]

And here's Jeordie response about the allegation and.... it's fucking weak: https://www.avclub.com/ex-marilyn-ma...-st-1819888318

[Kulerage]

This is...
interesting. What a way to return from my short break. I love the stuff he did for Manson, and while I might not enjoy them as much anymore, I know I still will. Whether this is fake or not, it's still very tragic, false or not.

[sweeterthan]

154 posts into this thread and we still have words like fake and false popping up. Massive eye roll.

[icklekitty]

I feel like to an extent it's *important* to separate art from artist; you're almost setting yourself up to fail if you put the person on such a high pedestal (their skill, their work ethic, their style - that's different). I know people who put musicians on such a high pedestal it's unrealistic. I know people who are angry at Trent because he had the AUDACITY to get married and have kids, change the way he worked ever so slightly, and *gasp* let his wife do backing vocals on a NIN song. It's almost like he's a human or something! :eyeroll:

[ltrandazzo]

I feel like to an extent it's *important* to separate art from artist; you're almost setting yourself up to fail if you put the person on such a high pedestal (their skill, their work ethic, their style - that's different). I know people who put musicians on such a high pedestal it's unrealistic. I know people who are angry at Trent because he had the AUDACITY to get married and have kids, change the way he worked ever so slightly, and *gasp* let his wife do backing vocals on a NIN song. It's almost like he's a human or something! :eyeroll:

Let alone the fact that she's done vocals on TWO songs now! THE NERVE

[NotoriousTIMP]

I feel like to an extent it's *important* to separate art from artist; you're almost setting yourself up to fail if you put the person on such a high pedestal (their skill, their work ethic, their style - that's different). I know people who put musicians on such a high pedestal it's unrealistic. I know people who are angry at Trent because he had the AUDACITY to get married and have kids, change the way he worked ever so slightly, and *gasp* let his wife do backing vocals on a NIN song. It's almost like he's a human or something! :eyeroll:

This brings up a memory of when I saw NIN in FL back in 2009. I stood next to two girls who were in the pit with me and both had on white shirts that said "HOW COULD YOU HAVE DONE THIS TO US?" written on the front. When asked what that meant, they explained, with tears in their eyes, that they were so upset that TR had come out publicly with the news of his relationship to Mariqueen and wanted to voice their disdain towards TR in person. I just replied "wow....okay" and slowly moved away from their area.

[Amaro]

This brings up a memory of when I saw NIN in FL back in 2009. I stood next to two girls who were in the pit with me and both had on white shirts that said "HOW COULD YOU HAVE DONE THIS TO US?" written on the front. When asked what that meant, they explained, with tears in their eyes, that they were so upset that TR had come out publicly with the news of his relationship to Mariqueen and wanted to voice their disdain towards TR in person. I just replied "wow....okay" and slowly moved away from their area.

[ton]

This brings up a memory of when I saw NIN in FL back in 2009. I stood next to two girls who were in the pit with me and both had on white shirts that said "HOW COULD YOU HAVE DONE THIS TO US?" written on the front. When asked what that meant, they explained, with tears in their eyes, that they were so upset that TR had come out publicly with the news of his relationship to Mariqueen and wanted to voice their disdain towards TR in person. I just replied "wow....okay" and slowly moved away from their area.

What the hell

[theruiner]

^^Oh. My. Good. Lord.

[eversonpoe]

http://www.businessinsider.com/kevin...sation-2017-10

kevin spacey turns out to be a predatory asshole who uses his "apology" to finally come out...

way to be a decent human being, kevin. /sarcasm

[allegro]

http://www.businessinsider.com/kevin...sation-2017-10

kevin spacey turns out to be a predatory asshole who uses his "apology" to finally come out...

way to be a decent human being, kevin. /sarcasm

I love Wanda Sykes' reaction:

"You don’t get to choose to hide under the rainbow"

[botley]

I saw something from the writer Megan Dietz circulating on Facebook, to the effect of: notably, people IMMEDIATELY believed Rapp's story and were condemning Spacey's actions (quite rightly), but are still having trouble believing women's stories about abusers — at least until an overwhelming plurality of voices are echoing them, saying "this also happened to me". This is a gendered issue of mistrust for women, and there's no doubt about it.

Sure, it's a little creepy sometimes how much thirsty goth people lust after Reznor, to the point of being awkward/uncomfortable around matters concerning his personal life. On the other hand, it's totally understandable — given how much encouragement they received over the years to behave that way, from seeing his public persona packaged as a sex symbol — particularly to the alternative lifestyle communities, some of whom saw in him a kindred spirit. It's chilling to think that someone with White's cache in that circle would seemingly be so willing to trade that allure for power over women, with such destructive consequences. It's sadly all too common in the performing arts, particularly where people bond over the instant emotional connection that music provides.

Should give us all pause to think about our part in feeding the idolatry.

[theimage13]

I saw something from the writer Megan Dietz circulating on Facebook, to the effect of: notably, people IMMEDIATELY believed Rapp's story and were condemning Spacey's actions (quite rightly), but are still having trouble believing women's stories about abusers — at least until an overwhelming plurality of voices are echoing them, saying "this also happened to me". This is a gendered issue of mistrust for women, and there's no doubt about it.

Sure, it's a little creepy sometimes how much thirsty goth people lust after Reznor, to the point of being awkward/uncomfortable around matters concerning his personal life. On the other hand, it's totally understandable — given how much encouragement they received over the years to behave that way, from seeing his public persona packaged as a sex symbol — particularly to the alternative lifestyle communities, some of whom saw in him a kindred spirit. It's chilling to think that someone with White's cache in that circle would seemingly be so willing to trade that allure for power over women, with such destructive consequences. It's sadly all too common in the performing arts, particularly where people bond over the instant emotional connection that music provides.

Should give us all pause to think about our part in feeding the idolatry.

I see this allllll the time at work. Walking around with a laminate instantly makes you a target for women asking how they can get backstage. I'm not going to make the assumption that every one of them is asking because they want to get in someone's pants - but I have to wonder how many of them would go that route if the artist suggested it, even if that was not the person's intent for wanting to meet them in the first place (a la LCK and "you don't mind if I do this, do you?").

[allegro]

I saw a thing posted in a comment on Twitter about how we can blame Western (rape) culture for all of these crimes, and they cited Pepe LePew constantly chasing Penelope Pussycat.

And that reminded me of the old “Pirates of the Caribbean” rides at Disneyland and Disney World where drunk pirates were chasing terrified women or auctioning them off like slaves:

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/06/29...uction-brides/