Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

[playwithfire]

It's people like you who are part of the problem.

Ooh, like me how?

Stoking the flames when there's clearly no fire.

Whence? Whence did I do that, streetman.

The guy is CLEARLY a troll. He created two accounts on the same day and then tweeted some BS about Trent which he quickly deleted. He's happy he's getting the attention on the Maynard accusation and he's only getting it because people like you take it and run with it.

Are you saying that I did that or just people like me? Who am I like?

Thanks to the internet and people who are willing to believe anything, the truth has now become subjective.

Or like, written communication and media throughout human history.

THAT is more problematic and dangerous than anything.

What if.... what if the thing you did was still bad, and... and what if other things can also be bad?

[WorzelG]

Hmm, why "fair"? Curious about that choice of word. I think most sexual assault survivors don't have much to gain by pressing charges. Even in civil court, the legal system hardly benefits survivors. You can totally try to make an argument that them taking it to court is the "right" thing to do, but more often than not it just means reliving a bunch of trauma and character assassination for nothing. I understand why survivors don't pursue legal shit.

Meanwhile, for someone falsely accused, the legal system often is the most effective recourse and resource they have, imo.

This is why it upsets me that Harvey Weinstein went to the police and pleaded not guilty. I think he’s relying on the women not wanting to go through the trauma of a trial. I want him to get proper justice but I don’t think it will happen, can a court force victims to testify?

[playwithfire]

I'm not sure. I think so? But, no clue. I think investigators in the NYPD wanted to take him down for years.

[Krazy]

I call bullshit @ "My phone was off."

He waited until now to comment because of the "evidence" pointing towards it being false. There's no possible way he could have argued with a story like that because every rock star on earth has done that exact thing a thousand times. I doubt MJK had any more knowledge than we did about the veracity of the story.

He was obviously being sarcastic about the phone thing. You can look at his Twitter profile and see that he has “liked” some recent tweets.

Unless you’re being sarcastic and it’s over my head.

[Sarah K]

Not Maynard related, but holy shit at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.509a8543f897

[Swykk]

What the fuck?!

This is a truly terrible world.

[OKNOTOK]

Is there any evidence to this 4chan thing?

Earlier in the thread, a few pages back I think.

[Jinsai]

now Ron Jeremy is accused of assault
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0cb5605200581

[playwithfire]

now Ron Jeremy is accused of assault
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0cb5605200581

iirc he already had a bit of a negative reputation for this kinda shit within the industry, as well

[r_z]

Yeah, hi. That was me. I have been a fan of maynard for a long time. i've heard more than one creepy story about him in the 20+ years. There's some on the internet and a few grapevine type stories. They may not be true but there's definitely quite a few and I know i'm not the only one who's heard them.

I do think hiding in the back from your fans is rather cowardly and doesn't make me want to shell out for his shows. He's long been overrated imo. Plenty of rapists stand at the front of the stage so no, I don't think that alone makes him a rapist.

See, stories, hearsay, feelings and assumptions are not exactly the strongest grounds to stand on when accusing someone with a crime like this.

What you think of his music, stage presence, interviews... everything that amounts to the artistic image/narrative he or any other musician chose to feed the public is of no relevance for what he as a person and human is like and it's not your/our business to drag this into a discussion like this.

[Sutekh]

See, stories, hearsay, feelings and assumptions are not exactly the strongest grounds to stand on when accusing someone with a crime like this.

What you think of his music, stage presence, interviews... everything that amounts to the artistic image/narrative he or any other musician chose to feed the public is of no relevance for what he as a person and human is like and it's not your/our business to drag this into a discussion like this.

I think you're confusing bad form with an actual set of rules people are bound to. I agree this sort of speculation isn't great, but who is it that decides what is or isn't one's business in casual conversation and from where do they derive that authority

[sweeterthan]

See, stories, hearsay, feelings and assumptions are not exactly the strongest grounds to stand on when accusing someone with a crime like this.

What you think of his music, stage presence, interviews... everything that amounts to the artistic image/narrative he or any other musician chose to feed the public is of no relevance for what he as a person and human is like and it's not your/our business to drag this into a discussion like this.

I didn’t accuse him of any crime. I said he’s becoming more and more intolerable based on what I know about him. I judge people by their character and actions. I’m sure you do too. He treats his fans like they’re disposable. He has a reputation for treating women as disposable. So why should I continue handing over my cash when at this point in my fandom, I barely like the guy?

[aggroculture]

a friend of mine, music journalist, says stories about MJK being into underage girls have been going around for years, and belives an acquaintance had a sexual relationship with MJK while underage.
I think what we've seen so far is the tip of the iceberg.

[CPSmith]

This is one bad thing about the internet. You're going along one day, minding your own business, and the next day through no fault of your own everything is turned upside down. Control over your reputation, your career, your financial security, your privacy, your future, your family and friends. It can literally be taken away from you with a single tweet or post by someone who has nothing to do with you or your life. And people online don't think - or don't care - what happens to those who are at the center of these little lynch mobs. He mentioned clickbait in his response. Well, messes like this happen to innocent people simply because other people keep the monster alive. It's like a game to most people. It's entertaining. Until it happens to them.






"Never fuck with a woman whose 'fans' are crazier than yours are."
Anon

[playwithfire]

I think where I'm ending up with this regardless is that Tool/APC/Maynard as a vocalist (he is my absolute favorite vocalist and was hugely influential on me as a singer) have been way too impactful to me to be able to give up the music that's been made, I think it's too fundamental to so much shit for me, but if this is true (and maybe even if it's not because dude just seems scummy and I didn't know how deep that went before) I'm def not gonna support going forward. I guess I finally found the thing where I had to learn to separate the art from the artist, which, ugh, that's such an absurd thing to need to do.

[aggroculture]

[pulse]

Slide a mile six inches at a time...

Where the hell has everyone been the past 30 years? Christ... You just now think he's "scummy" because there are rockstar rumors that have been circulating about him for decades? I can name no less than four of my own girlfriends from my own high school in the 90s that wanted to fuck him and one that specifically bragged that she "sucked him off" after a show. She may have been full of shit or perhaps she was telling the truth. I've no way to know in absolutes or facts because I was not in their presence to witness the act. However, I do suspect she probably was lying.

People lie over stupid and ridiculous shit -- perhaps to impress or gain attention or some other psychological issues; yet, this remains a universally shared characteristic of all humans. And this is the fucking problem when it comes to stories and rumors that include idolized larger-than-life personalities.

If you hung around enough immature young people who frequented concerts and festivals from the 90s, like myself, chances are you knew a girl or two who talked about getting their favorite rockstars off. I am not saying this to focus on girls either. I had plenty of male friends who outright lied and bragged about having sex with certain women I knew that I quickly figured out was absolute bullshit. Again, youth, immaturity, etc.. Does this mean that MJK, TR or any other famous musician and vocalist didn't take advantage of their position to bang some underage fans? No, I have no idea nor can I say otherwise. Chances are that some did take part in pretty decadent and questionable shit. But I also know that even if they never had sex with any fans, regardless of age, there would still be rumors because young people say and spread stupid shit. Obviously, this doesn't just apply to young people either.

The accusations against MJK and TR on Twitter were specifically about rape. And based on the suspicious procedings of how the accounts were created and the circumstances of the postings, these appear on the surface to be bullshit false accusations. But let's go ahead and make a mockery of vocalists in question who built and made their careers off their own fucked up rage and psychological issues because they now seem "scummy".

[Archive_Reports]

Metalsucks gets a lot of (sometimes rightfully deserved) shit, but I've heard from numerous people that Vince is a good dude. Curious to see what they have.

[playwithfire]

Where the hell has everyone been the past 30 years?

Well, I wasn't alive for the first year, and then I was born in 1989. Mostly in the south, NYC these days.

You just now think he's "scummy" because there are rockstar rumors that have been circulating about him for decades?

Are you quoting me, bb? Wasn't crossing my internet much when I first became a fan.

I can name no less than four of my own girlfriends from my own high school in the 90s that wanted to fuck him and one that specifically bragged that she "sucked him off" after a show. She may have been full of shit or perhaps she was telling the truth. I've no way to know in absolutes or facts because I was not in their presence to witness the act. However, I do suspect she probably was lying.

Uh.

People lie over stupid and ridiculous shit -- perhaps to impress or gain attention or some other psychological issues. Lying is a universally shared characteristic of all humans. And this is the fucking problem when it comes to stories and rumors that include idolized larger-than-life personalities.

If you hung around enough immature young people who frequented concerts and festivals from the 90s, like myself, chances are you knew a girl or two who talked about getting their favorite rockstars off. I am not saying this to focus on girls either. I had plenty of male friends who outright lied and bragged about having sex with certain women I knew that I quickly figured out was absolute bullshit. Again, youth, immaturity, etc.. Does this mean that MJK, TR or any other famous musician and vocalist didn't take advantage of their position to bang some underage fans? No, I have no idea nor can I say otherwise. Chances are that some did take part in pretty decadent and questionable shit. But I also know that even if they never had sex with any fans, regardless of age, there would still be rumors because young people say and spread stupid shit. Obviously, this doesn't just apply to young people either.

O... okay?

The accusations against MJK and TR on Twitter were specifically about rape. And based on the suspicious procedings of how the accounts were created and the circumstances of the postings, these appear on the surface to be bullshit false accusations. But let's go ahead and make a mockery of vocalists in question who built and made their careers off their own fucked up rage and psychological issues because they now seem "scummy".

Um....

I think where I'm ending up with this regardless is that Tool/APC/Maynard as a vocalist (he is my absolute favorite vocalist and was hugely influential on me as a singer) have been way too impactful to me to be able to give up the music that's been made, I think it's too fundamental to so much shit for me, but if this is true (and maybe even if it's not because dude just seems scummy and I didn't know how deep that went before) I'm def not gonna support going forward. I guess I finally found the thing where I had to learn to separate the art from the artist, which, ugh, that's such an absurd thing to need to do.

To deny that Maynard was banging a bunch of groupies and engaging in some scummy shit (nsfw), and to categorize someone labeling that behavior as such as mAKing a MoCKeRY, sure seems incredibly precious.

[pulse]

Well, I wasn't alive for the first year, and then I was born in 1989. Mostly in the south, NYC these days.



Are you quoting me, bb? Wasn't crossing my internet much when I first became a fan.



Uh.



O... okay?



Um....



To deny that Maynard was banging a bunch of groupies and engaging in some scummy shit (nsfw), and to categorize someone labeling that behavior as such as mAKing a MoCKeRY, sure seems incredibly precious.

I mean come on, you at least have YouTube, don't you? Even if you weren't old enough to experience that era, you can watch some concert footage. These personalities that are under fire here weren't exactly singing about high school crushes and breakups. And yes, mockery.

[icklekitty]

So everyone who writes about something difficult, edgy, or risque is a rapist? Grow the fuck up.

[Jord]

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news...es_guilty.html

troll

[pulse]

So everyone who writes about something difficult, edgy, or risque is a rapist? Grow the fuck up.

No, most certainly not. But neither does that make them such when people spread rumors about them either. All this underage fucking and not one single police report? Yet someone posts some bullshit on Twitter and now he's a serial statutory rapist. Oh, and he must be that way because of his complete asshole persona.

[playwithfire]

Concert footage typically doesn't feature KISS makeup dick sucking collages (alas, right?). I also regrettably do not own a time machine, so while I have become aware of the behavior in the present, I do not have the ability to clue 16 year old me in. I'm sorry if you're disappointed that I harbored some naieveté while being a teenager and/or young adult. It's weird, I know. Hardly ever happens. But, it did. And I can't reverse that, because A.) time travel and B.) I've seen The Butterfly Effect and I'm not about to try that.

But maybe you're right, maybe we should just take the content of work an artist creates and use that to make sweeping assumptions about their lives separate from art. Except... weren't you just criticizing me for doing that?

But let's go ahead and make a mockery of vocalists in question who built and made their careers off their own fucked up rage and psychological issues because they now seem "scummy".

Was I supposed to assume that they were being scummy and fucking groupies because of rage and issues in their music? Or am I wrong to now assume they were being scummy and fucking groupies? Which is it? And can you explain to me how my belated realization, which doesn't impact my respect for their talent, now qualifies as making a mockery of them?

[icklekitty]

No, most certainly not. But neither does that make them such when people spread rumors about them either. All this underage fucking and not one single police report? Yet someone posts some bullshit on Twitter and now he's a serial statutory rapist. Oh, and he must be that way because of his complete asshole persona.

. If you think everyone blindly believes the accusation you’re not reading posts properly.

[pulse]

Concert footage typically doesn't feature KISS makeup dick sucking collages (alas, right?). I also regrettably do not own a time machine, so while I have become aware of the behavior in the present, I do not have the ability to clue 16 year old me in. I'm sorry if you're disappointed that I harbored some naieveté while being a teenager and/or young adult. It's weird, I know. Hardly ever happens. But, it did. And I can't reverse that, because A.) time travel and B.) I've seen The Butterfly Effect and I'm not about to try that.

But maybe you're right, maybe we should just take the content of work an artist creates and use that to make sweeping assumptions about their lives separate from art. Except... weren't you just criticizing me for doing that?



Was I supposed to assume that they were being scummy and fucking groupies because of rage and issues in their music? Or am I wrong to now assume they were being scummy and fucking groupies? Which is it? And can you explain to me how my belated realization, which doesn't impact my respect for their talent, now qualifies as making a mockery of them?

I get you. I understand. I'm just finding it a little silly how anyone idolized him in the first place beyond anything other than their talent and writing abilities. We want think rockstars and popstars don't give into the temptation of fucking a fan in the throws of thousands of afterparties. These are humans. Particularly scarred ones. I would like to think they "grew up" and have become much better people. But that's not because I can't understand why they did what they did or gave into temptation.

[playwithfire]

See, and I don't take issue with that response. I absolutely take issue with having to reassess MJK's decency characterized as making a mockery of his artistic talent.

I've made clear time and time again on this board that I view sexual assault as a common occurrence and something men do frequently and often unwittingly. Because, we teach seduction as a thing where women are often passive, where they want to be convinced, where "she didn't say no" and "she let me" is a substitution for "she said yes" and "she actively participated." I think it is dangerous to treat sexual assault as something only done by bad people. Yes, it is often deliberate. People often do not care. But equally as often, people take license with the grey area to get what they want, and that can have catastrophic consequences for the person who is taken advantage of. Categorizing sexual assault as only "who could do such a thing?" makes us actually affecting change harder. It sets us back.

On a different note, yes, I could believe that any person presented with money and power would do some scummy shit and maybe then grow beyond that later in life. I think in TR's case it's beyond obvious that whatever the 90's held he has grown immensely as a person. I'm not seeing that from Maynard so much. This presents him with an opportunity to demonstrate that. Does he have to? No one has to do anything. But, people can form opinions about him accordingly.

[pulse]

See, and I don't take issue with that response. I absolutely take issue with having to reassess MJK's decency characterized as making a mockery of his artistic talent.

I've made clear time and time again on this board that I view sexual assault as a common occurrence and something men do frequently and often unwittingly. Because, we teach seduction as a thing where women are often passive, where they want to be convinced, where "she didn't say no" and "she let me" is a substitution for "she said yes" and "she actively participated." I think it is dangerous to treat sexual assault as something only done by bad people. Yes, it is often deliberate. People often do not care. But equally as often, people take license with the grey area to get what they want, and that can have catastrophic consequences for the person who is taken advantage of. Categorizing sexual assault as only "who could do such a thing?" makes us actually affecting change harder. It sets us back.

On a different note, yes, I could believe that any person presented with money and power would do some scummy shit and maybe then grow beyond that later in life. I think in TR's case it's beyond obvious that whatever the 90's held he has grown immensely as a person. I'm not seeing that from Maynard so much. This presents him with an opportunity to demonstrate that. Does he have to? No one has to do anything. But, people can form opinions about him accordingly.

Agreed.

Edit: If I may, Maynard in some respects did talk about groupies and that life in his book. He also talked down about it and called it cliché and not something he wanted to be a part of anymore. Yes, MJK is a witty and sarcastic asshole in public. He always has been. He is also very political and outspoken. Granted, perhaps his abrasive personality rubs everyone the wrong way, and perhaps I am just a fan defending one of my favorite artists, but having sex with groupies, regardless of the moral and ethical implications, is still not illegal. We must be clear that the rumors/accusations are of a completely different nature. Though none of us here debating the issue knows the facts, I do give him the benefit of having lived a lifestyle most of us can only imagine. That doesn't mean I condone it.

Furthermore, MJK is an extremely private person who seems to get hostile, to a point, when he is confronted with matters of a personal nature. He is clearly not normal in certain respects. But we should be careful in using that characteristic as something that constitutes guilt. Hell, I'd almost descibe him as Asperger's Syndrome. But perhaps that is not what I am looking for here...

[playwithfire]

Basically where my viewpoint with this is:

- Men commit the vast majority of sexual assault

- Incidents of sexual assault are common

- Many men who commit sexual assault do not view what they are doing as sexual assault (I linked to a study about this upthread)

- Drunken behavior with poor communication creates an environment where sexual assault is more likely

- Money and power tend to create a sense of entitlement and make people even more prone to being shitty

All totals up a man, having a high volume of sexual encounters in environments where communication is likely poor, where substances may be involved, where power is out of balance, where he has access to money and fame, and is therefore more likely to do bad shit, committing sexual assault is believable. Verified? Nah. A reasonable sequence of events? Yes.

[aggroculture]

These defenders of Maynard remind me of Republicans who KNOW that Trump didn't collude.
How the fuck do you know? Were you in the room? No. Exactly.

And these internet sleuths... remind me of the redditors who ID-ed the wrong people in the Boston bombing.