Look: the vast majority of people on this planet are sexually attracted to other people. Looking is natural.
Here's the problem.
The DOJ's low estimate for the number of women raped each year is 300,000. Three. Hundred. Thousand. The high estimate is 1.3 million.
Women have every reason in the world to wonder what a "look" could turn into.
I know what you mean, but some of those overreactions seem pretty ridiculous to me. We coud state the same about murder victims, but I don’t think anyone would truly benefit from a constant state of paranoia.
There has to be a minimum of common sense from all parties involved. Sexual harrasment, sexual misconduct, rape, etc, are reprehensible behaviours, and society seems to be gearing towards less and less tolerance towards those who do that shit, and there are laws already in place to punish those acts. However, there’s a long way to go to get to the point where people will genuinely respect one another, so, while that happens, while we get there, everyone would benefit from a bit of common sense.
I think I have the right and should have the freedom to walk around the sketchiest neighbourhoods wearing a suit made of $100 bills without having to be worried about my safety. But that’s not the reality we live in today. And while I believeas a society we should head towards that goal, common sense tells me maybe I should choose a better time and place to wear my suit. That does not mean I cater to the bad guys, it only means I understand that we’re not quite there yet, and that my own safety and well-being are more important than being stubborn, making a point, or any cause I might believe in.
Some people will say that’s victim-blaming. I disagree. I truly believe that all of us should be free to wear whatever we want without it being a reason for judgement, but until we get there, a bit of common sense should be mandatory: being aware of the situation right here right now.
Yes I know.
And the whole reason "cleavage and men looking" was being discussed in the first place was because Cashpiles said: "men must control their behavior, because it can cause harm. However, what about women helping men by wearing clothing that doesn't draw men's eyes to the parts of women's bodies that women don't like random men looking at."
This was a ludicrous statement with no relevance to a thread about sexual assault. Nor did the ensuing conversation that it inspired have any relevance to the thread topic. The only reason someone would bring this up in a thread about sexual assault would be to suggest that women's clothing has something to do with men "controlling their behavior" (i.e: not raping). Which it clearly doesn't.
I remember when I used to work retail, when I'd work an opening shift I'd need to leave my house around 3ish to take the bus/train into the city to get to work on time. I lived in a pretty safe neighborhood (northern 104th precinct: https://maps.nyc.gov/crime/) and I had a few especially not-great experiences of street harassment (being yelled at or asked super inappropriate questions or having my personal space invaded vs. merely catcalling) as I walked to the bus or train alone, or within the subway system (something I now have the means to opt the fuck out of at that hour and would, because street harassment sucks) -- and I remember, if I wore a green hoodie I owned instead of my myriad of black ones, the amount of catcalling, etc, I'd receive would notably tick up. A fucking. Green. Hoodie.
That I've never received a lot of street harassment compared to my peers. Everryyynow and then it happens. It lessened even more when I got a little fat and cut my hair, which, added bonus. That said, I was sort of assaulted last year when I was kinda grabbed by a guy while I was on the phone with someone (I was actually conducting an interview, and just kept going) -- it was a confusing, blurry experience. I think I was wearing a big baggy army jacket.
cashpiles observation was bad. It's a stupid thing to give any credence to beyond "no, not a thing." Yes, a woman SHOULD be able to walk through a bad neighborhood in a bikini (though really, how many rapists work on Wall Street and are named Chet, so kinda fuck that implication as far as classism goes) but I remember how wearing A COLOR would up my harassment because people are absolute garbage.
Last edited by playwithfire; 12-03-2017 at 05:24 PM.
Well, you don’t get to dictate what is relevant and what not, or the value of other people’s opinions, but apparently you think you do.
It’s funny how you made one interpretation of what cashpiles said, and i made a different one... it almost makes me think that maybe out interpretations of what we perceive are not absolute because what we read into it is shaped by our own personal experiences which might not be the same to everybody else’s... what a crazy world, eh?
Also, poll, do any women in this thread give a fuck if a man looks at their cleavage? Because HOLY FUCK I don't. I care if someone LEERS or STARES which is a choice and not someone just looking at shit. If they're spending 45 seconds staring at my chest, hey, get a hobby. But a look? God, I don't give a shit. And people thinking this is an issue is just indicitive of them needing several clues.
Yeah I don’t care, either; if I’m putting my tits out there, it means I like my tits.
And it ain’t about my sexuality, it’s about me and my tits. I liken it to guys and their biceps. Sun’s out, guns out.
But I’m not reading this thread, anymore; it actually gives me a stomach ache. I wish we had an “ignore thread” feature here.
Last edited by allegro; 12-03-2017 at 05:59 PM.
I'm not a woman, but... A quick glance? It's impossible not to if they're on display. I'm in a relationship, and I'm happy, so I even try to avoid "looking at the menu" but it's impulsive... No, I don't stare. But your eyes just go there. It's instinct. It's part of taking in what you're seeing. Ogling or staring would be weird, single or not.
never though i would post this but... maybe this thread needs to be locked. sexual assault is a pretty touchy subject easily misinterpreted especially on an internet message board. look I find ETS'ers to be some of the smarter out there. but given the anonymous nature. I know people who have undergone sexually traumatic events and even things that most would find innocuous can trigger them in to pretty intense anxiety attacks. which i wouldn't. want for anyone who posts here. I know we're all adults here but we should treat this thread with a little extra sensitivity. OK carry on maybe I'm over empathetic, but sexual trauma, can cause really deep physiological scars. maybe I'm a whatever, I sometimes find it amusing if can find a new creative insult for me, but so far in life when ever I say I've said I've seen or heard it all I'm find I'm wrong as the Chinese curse states, may you live in interesting times.
-Louie
Strong same. Generally, you notice, but you get on with your life. I don't think there's anything wrong in noticing someone, and I don't care if people notice me. Like, I'm super attracted to women. I mostly date women. And there are absolutely shitty predatory queer women, but for some reason, I don't see dialogues about how hard it is for queer women to control themselves with other women, everywhere.
It's insulting to everyone, to make arguments about how men "just can't help themselves" and distracts from the fact that none of us give a fuck about having our cleavage noticed and are talking about sexual harassment, here.
Last edited by playwithfire; 12-03-2017 at 09:27 PM.
Reasonably relevant to this thread.
edit: JFC, don't read the comment section on that unless you want your blood pressure to spike.
Last edited by theimage13; 12-04-2017 at 06:54 AM.
So good!
^^^ fwiw I also thought it wasn't relevant.
John Oliver did a good thing
Welcome to sexual misconduct in America, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
Convicted rapist and generally shitty affluent white boy seeks to have his sexual assault conviction overturned
And so is Conyers.
I am in love with this. As much as I would have loved to see Kap get the honor - for no other reason than to read the news about the president's heart attack following the announcement - I am so happy to see this as the decision for 2017. Love this decision.
Why is Taylor Swift on the cover? Didn't she make a career out of singing about men who were only with her for a while? She's just as bad as these sexual harassers.
Hall of Fame quarterback Warren Moon with some sleazy AF shit...
Looks like Franken is going down.
Tweet from yesterday:
"Senator Franken is talking with his family at this time and plans to make an announcement in DC tomorrow."
Yeah, that sounds like a run-up to a resignation announcement. Too bad it's only Democrats that have the decency to resign after being called out for their absurd behavior. This shouldn't be a political or partisan thing, but when only one party does the right thing in light of learning someone's a scumbag...
republican's always play the demo's like a violin, or charlie brown and Lucy with a football thinking they will do the right thing. they don't, Roy will take his seat in the senate with a smile on his face. continue being a pedophile, pushing anti-abortion laws until one of his child gfs gets pregnant. pounding his bible and pointing his crooked finger at others i think AL should stay if only for this reason alone.
-louie
Yeah but, realistically, Republicans are openly hostile to women, so it's kind of futile to ever expect anything remotely decent from them. Honestly, I have never had any doubt in my mind that they would fail to get rid of Moore. Why would they sacrifice him? This is not an issue that they are deeply concerned about, so of course they are going to protect their abusers. This an ongoing, fundamental part of their entire culture. Yeah, they might toss out some hollow platitude here and there, but ultimately they could care less about what happens to women. But I hold Democrats to higher standards, and I would have been pissed if Franken had been allowed to stay. It's a matter of principle.